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-   -   Does Nothingness exist? (http://www.frostcloud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24201)

PoseidonsNet 03-11-2010 09:03 PM

Does Nothingness exist?
 
Does Nothingness exist?

If it does, then it is not nothingness, for it then exists.

The concept of 'zero' exists. We use nothingness as a 'thing', and without this, we would have no PC's, and no internet. No language.

But it is 'nothing', so how can nothing be also something? How can it exist, if it does not exist?

oi!

So why this thread?

To demonstrate a perfect paradox.
Which shows that REALITY does not always abide by logic.

Can something come out of nothing?
Or in a more mundane sense, can more come out of less?

Well the Universe is marginally more today than it was yesterday.
So were does this expanding space come from?

ok, so hypothetically, it comes from another universe... and we are left in the infinite regress.

Now, if it was not possible for something to come out of nothing, then nothing would ever change. Even if the universe is accumulating extra space from another universe, how can this process arrive? It must have always been thus (if we accept that something cannot come from nothing)

But before this universe existed, this process could not have existed, for there was no local universe to expand into.

Somewhere along the line something has to come from nothing (more from less) or else all would be static.

In order for change to be possible, something must change from one thing to another ~ thus more must come from less, which is to say something from nothing.

Confusing?
Like all paradoxes, yes.

If nothing exists, then it is not nothingness, for it then exists.

;-j

Symptom777 03-11-2010 11:25 PM

look between your ears

PoseidonsNet 03-12-2010 12:02 AM

look within yourself

jdp 03-12-2010 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoseidonsNet (Post 447741)
But it is 'nothing', so how can nothing be also something? How can it exist, if it does not exist?

Zero is a number, however, and an integer, so it is something. It simply doesn't enumerate anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoseidonsNet (Post 447741)
Which shows that REALITY does not always abide by logic.

Actually, according to quantum physics, there is no such thing as an absence of existence. In any given space, there are quanta.

This has cosmological significance, as it answers the question whether or not something can come from nothing. If there is no "nothing," then the Big Bang did have something to come from.

PoseidonsNet 03-12-2010 12:51 AM

and yet,
whatever the big bang came from was less than what the universe is now
so you still have more coming from less,

also
you still have a human mind seemingly manifesting out of mud

if more comes from less, then somewhere in that
something has to come from nothing

:-!

PoseidonsNet 03-12-2010 12:53 AM

and if nothing does not exist, then what can you possibly mean
by the word
'nothing'
:-?

jdp 03-12-2010 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoseidonsNet (Post 447755)
and yet, whatever the big bang came from was less than what the universe is now so you still have more coming from less

Not necessarily. You're assuming there is only one universe, not many.

It all makes sense to me if one accepts (a) a multiverse and (b) time is curved.

jdp 03-12-2010 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoseidonsNet (Post 447756)
and if nothing does not exist, then what can you possibly mean by the word 'nothing'

Exactly. I am suggesting that "nothing" is a word without meaning or value.

PoseidonsNet 03-12-2010 02:06 AM

But this is the paradox.
'Nothingness' has PROFOUND meaning and value.

Can we do trigonometry without zero?
Can we have logic without the concept of negation?

NO!

I do not assume a single universe or a multiverse : I would rather just follow both lines and see the results.

If The multiverse spawned our universe, then before it did so, it was less than after it did so. Since our universe began, the multiverse is more than what it was before it began.

So we still have something from nothing (more from less) regardless of wether we accept one universe or many.

;-j

Nenad 03-12-2010 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoseidonsNet (Post 447755)
and yet,
whatever the big bang came from was less than what the universe is now
so you still have more coming from less,

Please, on what basis? Maybe it was smaller (squeezed), but less, absolutely not. Logicaly, you cannot have extra definition from definition. Definition doesn't, cannot change, it's by the constant.

Quote:

also
you still have a human mind seemingly manifesting out of mud

if more comes from less, then somewhere in that
something has to come from nothing
No, again, you're not thinking. Evolution - from simple to complex organisms. You ever heard of "the end justifies the means"? In order to upgrade, you need an upgrading material...

Nenad 03-12-2010 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoseidonsNet (Post 447756)
and if nothing does not exist, then what can you possibly mean
by the word
'nothing'

come on, Jesus, ....

There's nothing in this room. / Nothing here, sir. / Nothing happened. etc.

Word nothing means - the absence of something relevant in the given moment.

Nenad 03-12-2010 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdp (Post 447757)
Not necessarily. You're assuming there is only one universe, not many.

It all makes sense to me if one accepts (a) a multiverse and (b) time is curved.


Exactly. BB ( "our" universe) could easily be by a tiny drop in a giant ocean, ...the ocean itself could easily be the same, a tiny drop in a giant ocean..no end...

Nenad 03-12-2010 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoseidonsNet (Post 447763)
If The multiverse spawned our universe, then before it did so, it was less than after it did so. Since our universe began, the multiverse is more than what it was before it began.

So we still have something from nothing (more from less) regardless of wether we accept one universe or many.

I'm having an impression that youre doing this on purpose, like keep having something in here to argue about. More from less is absolutely ILLOGICAL. Can't have extra definition from definition present.

jdp 03-12-2010 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoseidonsNet (Post 447763)
But this is the paradox.
'Nothingness' has PROFOUND meaning and value. Can we do trigonometry without zero? Can we have logic without the concept of negation?

You're conflating zero and negation with nothingness.

Zero isn't nothing. Zero is zero. It's a number. It has value. You can add, subtract, multiply and divide by it.

Negation has value as well. It serves a purpose. A premise or argument that has been negated is still a premise or argument.

The term nothing, in the historical sense, implies an absence of existence. Quantum physics, however, shows that for every given space there is a quantum. For every given space, there is something there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysticalia (Post 447781)
If The multiverse spawned our universe, then before it did so, it was less than after it did so. Since our universe began, the multiverse is more than what it was before it began.

You obviously don't understand quantum physics. There is no less or more. Existence is everywhere and has always been everywhere.

Nenad 03-12-2010 07:43 PM

Now, there might be a true nothingness. I believe that when we all die, that's exactly what we experience so to speak - nonexistence. Same nonexistence was "there" before our own birth. This is the matter of subjective and objective realities. I think this is the only "place" where true nonexistence, nothingness, nothing "takes place", when there is no us, you, me - *I*.


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