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Old 04-28-2006, 01:07 PM
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False Happiness

I used to see much pathos expressed about the use of antidepressants. At the time, it was a trendy thing to be up in arms about. (Still is, maybe, but that's not important.)

Pharmaceutical backlash aside, do you believe that the happiness that is possible with antidepressants is equal, greater, or less than "natural highs"? (Be as abstract as you like. )

For that matter, how do you valuate happiness? As far as I'm concerned, feeling good is feeling good, (if you discount the lows and chemical dependency) which leads me to believe that the opposition comes mainly from pride. We like to feel like we're in control, so relying on medicine as a crutch is to admit weakness.
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Old 04-28-2006, 02:02 PM
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"Natural Highs"

I believe in contentedness, if we can reach this state of being then we are doing well. In this state we are allowed the periodic highs of happiness (short lived) and the periodic lows of sadness (also short lived). Depression is negated and unlikely to return when you are content with the world and with you in it.
As to the pharmacology I can only speak from a position of third person but the consensus of opinion seems to be you are no longer depressed but you are also no longer really there as yourself, you are detatched from all of your emotions, apparantly - third person and all that - thats what I heard anyway
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:00 PM
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hapiness shmapiness. comfortable alertness is what joy really is. not stuck on self and soking it all in, eager to see the morrow but living in the now. with drugs this can't occur. they are merely a stepping stone for those of us who may need them from time to time. personally i'm no fan of antidepressants. antipsychotic, mood stabilizing medication in low doses seem more consistent in their effectiveness. too often bipolar/manic depressives are misdiagnosed as being strictly depressed and this psuedo happiness can whirl the mania into delusional heights causing the person to plumet back down though the high's still going. drugs like paxil increase the likelyhood for suicide dramatically. what i'm curious about is how did anxiety get mixed in with depression? sure, someone may be depressed from feeling anxious all the time, but don't dare tell a doctor here you're having anxiety. hello pandora's box filled with all sorts of happy candy to make you a nut! i'm so happy, no really i am. no really i am!!!! that sorta thing. fear is a funny thing. not haha kind of funny, well maybe sometimes but psychopharmacology has a looooong way to go and it doesn't offer balance. only a teeter to counter whatever your totter happens to be. pharmicists will never tell you that, stuck on the latest thing. then they do these cocktails of antidepressants and antipsychotics with a splash of antianxiety, sleeping pills and vuala, you're a buzzin 24/7. too doped up to tell if you've made progress or not.

sorry drom, couldn't resist. i'd say for the short while i took them the 'happiness' was considerably worse than natural highs i've experienced. hell, even smoking pot hasn't measured up to them. not enough regularity in those types of highs. though how can we gauge such a thing? the mind changes, goes through phases and seasons the more experience we collect. maybe one day i'll be able to smoke pot, shoot some smack, take every drug both over the counter and prescribed, while my wife's giving me head and i'm in some transcendental kick as i chant, mind doors bursting open with brilliant light seeing the face of god and still i'm keeping my cool. who knows?

or maybe we should all just give a shot at being content like ben suggests.
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Old 04-28-2006, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navedub
what i'm curious about is how did anxiety get mixed in with depression? sure, someone may be depressed from feeling anxious all the time, but don't dare tell a doctor here you're having anxiety. hello pandora's box filled with all sorts of happy candy to make you a nut! i'm so happy, no really i am. no really i am!!!! that sorta thing. fear is a funny thing. not haha kind of funny, well maybe sometimes but psychopharmacology has a looooong way to go and it doesn't offer balance. only a teeter to counter whatever your totter happens to be. pharmicists will never tell you that, stuck on the latest thing. then they do these cocktails of antidepressants and antipsychotics with a splash of antianxiety, sleeping pills and vuala, you're a buzzin 24/7. too doped up to tell if you've made progress or not.
I agree that drugs treat the symptom... but I wonder, isn't that true of everything? Does changing one's lifestyle, taking up meditation, etc, isn't that all the same bandaid, only more effective?
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Old 04-28-2006, 05:32 PM
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Changing ones lifestyle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dromiceius
I agree that drugs treat the symptom... but I wonder, isn't that true of everything? Does changing one's lifestyle, taking up meditation, etc, isn't that all the same bandaid, only more effective?
Drugs are a cover for the pain of a reality you are unwilling to experience.
Changing ones lifestyle is relative (drag queen MC or yoga guru).

You mention Yoga etc, carefull or Mike Dubbeld will come in swinging thousand word essays around, but the idea of this sort of search for a greater understanding actually removes the need for any sort of bandaid therapy. Once an understanding of what living really is for you has been achieved via such a process it is then unnecessary for use of covering ageants. The rewards of such a process are a removal of worldly desires, a deep sence of self, a removal of fear (that is the biggy) and a peaceful and steadfast nature. No longer shall anxiety play such a negative role in your life as it will only matter what you think of what you do, and you will think well of yourself indeed if you try to do good in the world for yourself and those around you.

P.S. seriously though don't mention Yoga again.
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Old 04-28-2006, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
I agree that drugs treat the symptom... but I wonder, isn't that true of everything? Does changing one's lifestyle, taking up meditation, etc, isn't that all the same bandaid, only more effective?
sure. i'm always curious about what primative man did to deal with mental illness. and the more i think about it i don't believe it existed at all for him. that is, whatever was experienced was not yet divided into either being a negative or unnecessary occurance. i remember watching lines of ants when i was a kid and noticing most were orderly in carrying/moving in a straight line while others fumbled about. some walked in circles bumping into one another, seemingly useless to what was happening. nonetheless the food got where it needed to go and the line continued on. it's curious why this happens. i'm certain those ants still got their share of the food and as a unit humanity has alot to learn about being tolerant of unconventional, seemingly ineffective behavior and allowing it out in the open. that is, the more we attempt to fix a supposed problem rather than trying to understand it the more problems we create. understanding ultimately would be acceptance but that's not the nature of our society. we're primarily competitive and feel we must usurp control to maintain it. psychiatrists are often stuck in this dichotomy the worst. so the methods aren't tested, right off the bat drugs are given. then the methods start, only they'll be wholly ineffective now because you've shifted the mind's familiar perspective. now a whole new set of problems arise because the mind is looking at a different set of barriers. the original barriers go unrecognized which is fine to the physician as long as the behavior is representative of integration. not realizing masking the problem with drugs occurs for both the physician and the patient, so this is why scyzophrenics are immediately told there's will be a life long condition. the doctors aren't lying either. they're there to ensure that but don't understand how they do just that. even the more enlightened ones cling so tightly to, 'well we can't just do nothing and allow the person to live like this.' and of course you can't but they're beating their heads against the wall. 'the nuts are running the nuthouse' will always ring true because there was never meant to be a 'nuthouse' to begin with. the world is the nuthouse and we're all a bit nutty. some people are meant to be workhorses, others mystics, some lunes. familial unity is desperately needed i believe and maybe a revival of the bohemian lifestyle. the most sensitive types are being crushed under the thumb of 'sane' conformity. odd behavior used to be charming and nothing to get hung about. hell, for most of human history it has been venerated in different cultures. visionaries they'd be called, you know? if even for the sake of humouring a person it's still much healthier. the sanity of the modern western civilized man is probably the most insane boxed in persona of all human history in my opinion.
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Old 04-28-2006, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barret the Man
You mention Yoga etc, carefull or Mike Dubbeld will come in swinging thousand word essays around,
HAhahahahahahahahahahahah, too true!!
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Old 04-28-2006, 06:36 PM
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I've been strung up in the pursuit of true happiness as opposed to. . . false happiness (or temporary happiness). I had this belief that true happiness is found with being content with life (as Ben said). And as all things obvious, happiness is opposite sadness. It is an emotion that is taken in due to outside experience and perception. Things are perceived as better for you than you imagine them to be. Happiness. Things are perceived as better than what your previous state of mind was focused on. Happiness. All in all, our perception is what determines the experience of happiness. And our perception is controlled by electrical signals in the brain.

What most scientists understand about happiness, apetite, and sleep, is that the Neurotransmitter "Seritonin" in abundance will present a state of happiness, regulate apetite, and make you sleepy. I'm not sure if this is exactly correct, but that's what most anti-depressants effect. When someone's depressed, seritonin becomes blocked from being transmitted from neuron to neuron, thus not allowing one to be happy. Also, low amounts of Seritonin is produced making it hard to become happy. The drug 'Ecstacy' creates a major flow of Seritonin in the brain (it actually makes your brain produce major amounts of seritonin) and the effect of euphoria and bliss becomes apparent. This type of happiness is induced by the drug. Anti-depressants don't force seritonin to be produced, it simply unblocks the blocked signal. Your brain becomes adjusted to the unblocked signal, and therefore (sometimes) your brain learns to produce more seritonin.
All in all, happiness is created, lasting or short-lived, it is created.

My quest for true happiness is set on being content with life, and trying not to find happiness in things, because when those things are taken away from you, what are you left with?
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Old 04-28-2006, 07:10 PM
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True happiness is contentment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madesta
My quest for true happiness is set on being content with life, and trying not to find happiness in things, because when those things are taken away from you, what are you left with?
Be content Madesta but also allow yourself to feel happy when the moment is appropriate for you, allow yourself to feel sad when appropriate. Nobody can take your soul away from you so don't attach to material things and you will feel secure.
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Old 04-28-2006, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Burkhill
Be content Madesta but also allow yourself to feel happy when the moment is appropriate for you, allow yourself to feel sad when appropriate. Nobody can take your soul away from you so don't attach to material things and you will feel secure.
How do we know when the moment is appropriate to be happy or sad? Would you consider 'people' to be material things as well?
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Old 04-28-2006, 07:20 PM
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There is no 'appropriate' time to feel anything. If the thoughts and situation that one experiences make one sad, then feel sad, by all means. But dont let the emotions control you.
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Old 04-28-2006, 07:27 PM
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But, emotions do control you, don't they?
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Old 04-28-2006, 07:29 PM
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Are people material things?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madesta
How do we know when the moment is appropriate to be happy or sad? Would you consider 'people' to be material things as well?
First find contentedness however method suits you, then from that feeling of peace as a foundation, when you can't help but smile and the world feels wonderful to you you are happy - in this moment allow that feeling as long as it lasts, this is appropriate. Same goes for sad. Don't try to not find happiness in things is my point as you stated you would 3 posts ago.

No people are not material goods, people are worth having in your life despite the pain that comes from losing them, material things don't deserve that sort of pain so attach no true feeling to them - waste of emotion.
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Burkhill
First find contentedness however method suits you, then from that feeling of peace as a foundation, when you can't help but smile and the world feels wonderful to you you are happy - in this moment allow that feeling as long as it lasts, this is appropriate. Same goes for sad. Don't try to not find happiness in things is my point as you stated you would 3 posts ago.
You have just stated what naturally happens in life. That does not describe anything than what naturally goes on. It's like saying "Be happy when you're happy." "But be sad when you're sad." I take it you've never experienced unreasonable happiness (I.E. taking ecstacy). Or unreasonable sadness. (I.E. Comedown).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben
No people are not material goods, people are worth having in your life despite the pain that comes from losing them, material things don't deserve that sort of pain so attach no true feeling to them - waste of emotion.
Materials aren't worth having in your life? I understand people are worth having in your life, but why would you seek businesses, have 3 cars and 3 houses, when you realize these things aren't worth having? You realized it didn't make you happy (or rather, the pressure was too much), so you gave it up. People are worth having an emotional attachment, I agree. People are made of material. Maybe it's the mental connection we may find within someone that we connect to, and experiencing loss when the connection is lost is very painful. But it is only painful not because you have lost someone, it is because you cannot create more of what you already had. The experience, the happiness you've experienced with the individual is now locked into the individual itself. It was not the individual that created the happiness, it was the experience. People are made of material things. The attachment to things or people is what causes the hurt. In either cases, it is not the loss of the individual, it is the loss of your former expecting of future experience, gone. You never had that future experience in the first place. You've had the great experiences already.
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:23 PM
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learn to die. play dead. no, seriously try it. imagine dying as deeply as you can. every nuance of what would be left behind. total loss.
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