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Space and Time Discussions on space, time, relativity, physics, and the nature of the universe.

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  #1  
Old 05-19-2008, 06:19 PM
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Does time pass through?

Does time pass through ? Or are we passing through time?
Is time a river that transport everything, as we use to represent it, or something static in which events are evolving?
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  #2  
Old 05-20-2008, 12:17 AM
Bikerman Bikerman is offline
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If you want a scientific definition, in terms that are applicable to this particular forum, then time is a fundamental scalar quantity (like length, mass, charge) and is treated in physics geometrically by combining it with 3-D space into a 4-D spacetime.
If you want a more philosophical discussion of time then I would suggest that the philosophy forum might be a better place.
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:28 AM
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http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~davidt/TimePhys.html
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  #4  
Old 05-20-2008, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel View Post
Does time pass through ? Or are we passing through time?
This is like the difference between subject and object. The same as subjective time and objective time. Both go hand in hand. A split between both is an error. For a physicist subjective time is metaphysics; for a metaphysicist objective (physical) time is an abstraction of the real time which has to do absolutely with perception.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:56 AM
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The question is not mine.
Etienne Klein wrote (sorry for my word-by-word translation from french) " We already said that when the language speaks about time, it does it often in the wrong way. What does it mean when, for example, we are repeating that time "flows", "passes through", "vanishes"? This way of talking which associates time with lability and escape, has become common. By the way, it is not neutral. First of all, it is a language abuse. Nobody is arguing that that we may say that time is made from any thing that passes. But to deduct that it is time itself that passes through is making a shortcut and confusing content and container (“contenant et contenu”, which means also subject and object). The succession of the instants of time (past, present, future) is not the same thing that the evolution (“succession”) of time itself. They (the instants) pass, it (the time) do not. Then,, why is it more correct to say that time passes through than to say that the road is moving (“le chemin chemine”) or that a music book is singing? If we admit that any reality is temporal, saying that time is passing through is equal to say that, in reality, what is passing through is the sum of things and phenomenas that are containing by time. In a few words, it is the entire reality that passes through, and not the time itself”
From « IS TIME EXISTING? ( LE TEMPS EXISTE-T-IL?) » ed. Le pommier, 2002, pg 22,23. The smallest (and most condensated) book on my bookshelves.
Etienne Klein is a physicist and phd in philosophy, working at CEA (French Commissariat a l’Energie Atomique) and professor at Ecole Centrale de Paris.
This is not philosophy. This is about how things really work.
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  #6  
Old 05-21-2008, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Michel View Post
The question is not mine.
Etienne Klein wrote (sorry for my word-by-word translation from french) " We already said that when the language speaks about time, it does it often in the wrong way. What does it mean when, for example, we are repeating that time "flows", "passes through", "vanishes"? This way of talking which associates time with lability and escape, has become common. By the way, it is not neutral. First of all, it is a language abuse. Nobody is arguing that that we may say that time is made from any thing that passes. But to deduct that it is time itself that passes through is making a shortcut and confusing content and container (“contenant et contenu”, which means also subject and object). The succession of the instants of time (past, present, future) is not the same thing that the evolution (“succession”) of time itself. They (the instants) pass, it (the time) do not. Then,, why is it more correct to say that time passes through than to say that the road is moving (“le chemin chemine”) or that a music book is singing? If we admit that any reality is temporal, saying that time is passing through is equal to say that, in reality, what is passing through is the sum of things and phenomenas that are containing by time. In a few words, it is the entire reality that passes through, and not the time itself”
From « IS TIME EXISTING? ( LE TEMPS EXISTE-T-IL?) » ed. Le pommier, 2002, pg 22,23. The smallest (and most condensated) book on my bookshelves.
Etienne Klein is a physicist and phd in philosophy, working at CEA (French Commissariat a l’Energie Atomique) and professor at Ecole Centrale de Paris.
This is not philosophy. This is about how things really work.
Time itself is an illusory abstraction; it cannot be separated from the succession of the things. It's not container, neither contained.

Time only makes sense since our real being is never conditioned by the temporal and that it is the reason we have conscience of it as witness of becoming, of succession of facts, of changes, of transformations.

Even when totally isolated of the world, only attentive to our own being, there is always this temporary flow but only because our own physical and mental body is subject of changes.
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tralne View Post
Thank you for the link.
Maybe too philosophic.
And whithout any accurate answer.
As it is said, after reading it you know less than before reading it.
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:40 PM
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We use to believe that we don't know much about time, in comparaison with space, that we know quite well.
Space is something that we experience on an everyday basis.
But, really, do we "understand" what 3d space means?

An example: we know that physical time is unidirectionnal: there is no negative time.
We consider that space is multidirectionnal, that's a big difference with time.
But, then, where is negative space?
Do you know any negative distance?
Why do we read in our school books that a distance is always a positive quantity?
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel View Post
We use to believe that we don't know much about time, in comparaison with space, that we know quite well.
Space is something that we experience on an everyday basis.
But, really, do we "understand" what 3d space means?

An example: we know that physical time is unidirectionnal: there is no negative time.
We consider that space is multidirectionnal, that's a big difference with time.
But, then, where is negative space?
Do you know any negative distance?
Why do we read in our school books that a distance is always a positive quantity?
You are confusing scalars and vectors. Scalar quantities are simple numbers - inherent properties. Vectors are directionally related.
Here's a nice example for you.
Quantum charge is a scalar quantity - it doesn't depend on direction, it is a simple number. Quarks come in several 'flavours' but the important 2 are 'Up Quarks' and 'Down Quarks'. It happens that Up Quarks have a charge of 2/3 and Down Quarks have a charge of -1/3. It doesn't matter what system of units you care to use to describe the charge, the fundamental truth is that Up Quarks have a charge of x and Down Quarks have a charge of -1/2x.
There, in a nutshell, you have an example of negative scalar quantities occuring in real life.
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  #10  
Old 05-23-2008, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bikerman View Post
If you want a scientific definition, in terms that are applicable to this particular forum, then time is a fundamental scalar quantity (like length, mass, charge) and is treated in physics geometrically by combining it with 3-D space into a 4-D spacetime.
About scalar entities
you can have positive charge, and also negative charge.
but:
you can have positive length, no negative length.
you can have positive mass, no negative mass.
you can have positive time, no negative time.
Why?
If time is a fundamental scalar quantity, where is the "direction" of time?
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  #11  
Old 05-23-2008, 01:23 PM
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THE ATOM ENERGY EXSIST IN ALL THE TIMES, THE ENRGY IS THE SSAME, THE BODY IS THE SAME BUT THE SPIRIT IS ANOTHER...ITS SO MISTERIOUS WITH THE TIMETRAVELING...
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  #12  
Old 05-23-2008, 01:51 PM
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Why don't we stop to consider the space of determined dimensions? Why don't we consider the space rather only in two senses: one toward inside and the other one toward outside? We will have simplified this way the time-space sense imagining it as represented by a sphere that extends toward outside and concentrates toward inside. In any points that we choose inside our experienced space we will find these two senses. So there would not be a single centre because it would be everywhere and neither there would be an outside because in any points of that outside we will also find a concentration point.

Besides, the physical division between space and time is not useful because the senses of toward inside and toward outside do imply always the concept of time.
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  #13  
Old 05-23-2008, 03:42 PM
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Your idea is really good.But we should find the gates...I think thats a different kind of energy...We should find a new concept?
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  #14  
Old 05-23-2008, 05:20 PM
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according to Einstein's theory of relativity, time is relative to the person measuring it. time flows at different rates, so time isn't static. time only stops when a person reaches the speed of light.
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  #15  
Old 05-23-2008, 07:15 PM
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ok
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