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  #1  
Old 11-16-2009, 06:15 PM
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distance in expanding universe


I got fascinated by this little diagram from http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/redshift.html

There is something disturbing.IMO.
The 2 galaxies are closed to each other, then they are pushed away extremely quickly, faster than the Speed Of Light: it is called Inflation in the Big Bang theory. Fine.
But, have a look at what happens afterwards. The galaxies slow down, SOl remains the same, and finally, the ray of light (the little yellow spermatozoid)can reach the Galaxy on the right.
Look carefully, and you will see the slowing motion of the galaxies close to 10, 11, 12, billions years.

So, in my poor mind, I understand that following this little diagram, the universe should slow down. But that is not what we are observing. We are observing a Universe in acceleration.
That is disturbing.
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2009, 07:35 PM
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In decelerating universe expansion, the light in that situation will eventually reach the observer. In accelerating universe expansion, the light in that situation will never reach the observer. This is basic idea behind the Hubble Volume and Hubble limit. The diagram you have posted is regarding a decelerating universe, which, if I am not mistaken, is not what cosmologists, astronomers, and scientists in general think is happening.

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Originally Posted by Michel
So, in my poor mind, I understand that following this little diagram, the universe should slow down. But that is not what we are observing. We are observing a Universe in acceleration.
That is disturbing.
This paragraph of your is fairly comforting. You are not a complete retard. A little bit retarded, but not completely.

Just because it's an animated .gif doesn't mean it's real.
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Old 11-17-2009, 08:47 AM
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This site "atlasoftheuniverse.com" is referenced 54 times in Wikipedia (in english wiki).
I found it as a link from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distanc...res_(cosmology)

Quote:
The diagram you have posted is regarding a decelerating universe, which, if I am not mistaken, is not what cosmologists, astronomers, and scientists in general think is happening.
I have some doubts.
Quote:
This paragraph of your is fairly comforting. You are not a complete retard. A little bit retarded, but not completely.
I'll take that as a compliment.
Quote:
Just because it's an animated .gif doesn't mean it's real.
Right.

Last edited by Michel; 11-17-2009 at 08:49 AM. Reason: 54, not 52.
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Old 11-17-2009, 09:12 PM
jerrywickey jerrywickey is offline
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big cat didn't inturpret the diagram quit right.

During expansion space between galaxies which were even close together grew faster than the speed of light. Space was expanding very fast. After inflation ceased, space continues to expand but not as fast.

It is not that space is expanding at a faster and faster rate. Space is expanding at a constant rate. So many light years per year per light year.

If two galaxies have 1 billioin light years of space between them, that space is expanding at some constant rate. As they grow farther apart, more space is between them and therefor more space expands between them.

If the rate of expansion is 0.000,000,000,01 light year per year per light year. Then two galaxies that are 1 billion light years apart are growing apart at a rate of 0.01 light years per year. When they are 2 billion light years apart, they will be growing farther apart at twice that rate. 0.02 light years per year.

During inflation the rate at which space was expansing was greater. Things galaxies and stars which were close together still did not move apart faster than light. But things that were only millions of light years apart grew apart faster than light. At the current rate of expansion, things must be very very far apart to grow farther apart faster than light. More than 15 billion light years. As things get farther apart, there is more space between them to expand. So the same rate of expansion means that the farther apart two things are the faster they move apart.



by the way big cat, Not even the cat knows.

In the Schrödinger's Cat thought expiriment, the cat is both alive and dead at the same time. It is not a probability for the cat. It is only a probability for the observer. The cat is actually both dead and alive. If the cat becomes the observer, then things change again.


JErry

Last edited by jerrywickey; 11-17-2009 at 09:19 PM.
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  #5  
Old 11-17-2009, 10:47 PM
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In order for the universe to expand, in whatever way, it must be expanding relative to a fixed reference of no-expansion.

So, in order for the universe to expand, it must be an aspect of a higher multiverse (cosmos) that is not expanding for such an expansion to be effective and meaningful.

Just a hunch.
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  #6  
Old 11-18-2009, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerreywickey
After inflation ceased
Could you help a nigger out?

Last edited by Big Cat; 11-18-2009 at 12:57 AM.
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  #7  
Old 11-18-2009, 01:44 AM
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The inflationary epoch probably started 10e-36 seconds after the big bang and ended at 10e-32 seconds after the big bang at which time inflation slowed to near its current rate.

I could have used the term hyper inflation for clarity, as inflation itself continues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflationary_epoch

Jerry
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrywickey View Post

It is not that space is expanding at a faster and faster rate. Space is expanding at a constant rate. So many light years per year per light year.

If two galaxies have 1 billioin light years of space between them, that space is expanding at some constant rate. As they grow farther apart, more space is between them and therefor more space expands between them.

If the rate of expansion is 0.000,000,000,01 light year per year per light year. Then two galaxies that are 1 billion light years apart are growing apart at a rate of 0.01 light years per year. When they are 2 billion light years apart, they will be growing farther apart at twice that rate. 0.02 light years per year.

JErry
I don't think the diagram is compatible with this explanation. When you say "As they grow farther apart, more space is between them and therefor more space expands between them." I understand that as a kind of acceleration. I cannot see this acceleration in the little simulation.
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  #9  
Old 11-18-2009, 04:11 PM
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The diagram shows the galaxies expanding away from each other at faster than the speed of light for around 9 billion years, while the diagram shows the galaxies accelerating to speeds faster than the speed of light until, conservatively, around 7 billion years, slowing down after that. In fact, according to the diagram, the greatest expansion rate took place at around 6-7 to 7-9 billion years, and not during the first billion years, when 10e-36 to 10e-32 would have taken place.

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Originally Posted by Jerreywickey
big cat didn't inturpret the diagram quit right.
Did I not?
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  #10  
Old 11-19-2009, 02:18 AM
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From my prospective as the universe expands so does the speed of light -- remember that you are moving away from the center of gravity. We are in a stronger gravitational field moving into a lower gravitational field and light speed will increase. Light will always traverse space as though the two objects move apart without the expansion. Its still a case of relativity. In fact relativly we won't notice any difference in the speed of light even though distance expands and the speed of light increases.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:56 AM
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There is a confusion in the term "expand".
When space expands, distance don't change. The scale factor changes.
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Old 11-19-2009, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacedout View Post
From my prospective as the universe expands so does the speed of light -- remember that you are moving away from the center of gravity. We are in a stronger gravitational field moving into a lower gravitational field and light speed will increase. Light will always traverse space as though the two objects move apart without the expansion. Its still a case of relativity. In fact relativly we won't notice any difference in the speed of light even though distance expands and the speed of light increases.
Ahh. So you are an adherent to the variable speed of light hypothesis, right?
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  #13  
Old 11-20-2009, 02:05 AM
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The diagram does look like it shows that the universe was hyper expanding for billions of years, when in fact it did so for only the smallest fraction of a second in the first billionth of a billionth of the first second. That was enough however.

Space in the universe is still expanding but not nearly as fast. And it doesn't matter if space between two things is expanding or the two things are moving through space apart from each other. In both cases more space comes to be between them.

Space that comes into existance by expansion is no different and is indistinguishable from space that was there before.

Since the rate at which space expands quantifies the amount of space out of which an amount of new space spontaniously arrises, the rate is the same everywhere but the more space that is between two objects the more space will spontaniously arrise between them. If enough space is between two objects they will "fly apart" from each other at faster than light.

At the current rate of expansion, the entire universe is not enough space to make things fly away from each other faster than light. But evidently that rate was much much higher for a infetesimal fraction of the first second of the universe.

Jerry
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:28 AM
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Jerry, I suppose your last post is representing theory as presented today by mainstream scientists. I cannot accept almost anything of it..

_I cannot accept that "the universe was hyper expanding for billions of years, when in fact it did so for only the smallest fraction of a second in the first billionth of a billionth of the first second." For me it is what we call "deus ex machina". The hand of inflation positionned the universe instantly in the position we see it today. IMO it must be wrong. There must be another explanation.

_you wrote "it doesn't matter if space between two things is expanding or the two things are moving through space apart from each other." For me, it is of a major importance. This explanation gives some properties to space that I strongly believe do not have.

_you wrote "Space that comes into existance by expansion is no different and is indistinguishable from space that was there before." You see, "space comes into existence" IMO is completely wrong, and open the door to the aether theory, which has been demonstrated as wrong about 100 years ago.

_you wrote "new space spontaniously arrises". IMO nothing comes "spontaniously". Nothing spontanious has ever been observed. The term "spontanious" should been banned from the scientific language.

_you wrote "At the current rate of expansion, the entire universe is not enough space to make things fly away from each other faster than light." I think it is not the case. The very distant galaxies have a redshift that presupposes a receding speed higher than SOL. See for example http://www.stsci.edu/ftp/science/m87/press.txt

This post of mine is not intented to make you feel bad. You are on the right side. I am feeling bad about all that stuff.
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Old 11-20-2009, 11:14 PM
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No problem Michel,

These are all theories. Anyone who says that the way main stream scientist or anyone else describes the universe is the way it actually must be, is just simply crazy.

The last point is kinda' different though. Do I understand you correctly? The redshift in the spectrum of very distant galaxies implys they are moving away from us faster than light? Of course you can't mean that. If they were indeed moving away from us faster then light can move, we could not see them at all including their red shift.

Jerry
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