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  #46  
Old 01-29-2007, 10:27 AM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
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Thumbs up A Brave Muslim Scholar tells it like it is.

Excerpts:

"The Current Antisemitism in Arab Countries is Directed Against Imaginary Jews"

"Anti-Judaism is blended with anti-Zionism and turns into a kind of antisemitism"

"Meddeb notes that Islam has fought Judaism from the very beginning of its history in Medina: "...Faced with the newly-formed [Islamic] community, the Jews had to choose between converting and resisting. The Islamic anti-Judaism led to the massacre of the Jews in Medina, under the leadership of the Prophet."

"Unless Muslims Take a New Direction, One Can Reasonably Assume that Arab [Civilization], Constrained by the Framework of Islamic Faith, Will Join the Great Dead Civilizations…"

"What is Happening Around the World Teaches Us That It is Possible To Confront A Dictatorship And Triumph Over It"

"The Only Solution is to Acknowledge that All Koranic Verses Regarding Women's Inferiority are Obsolete"

He further cites [8] "the numerous Jewish masterpieces from the Middle-Ages that were written in Arabic." A few of the authors he mentions are Moses Ben Ezra, Yehuda Halevi and Maimonides.


"The Testimony of Al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, Confirms the Nazi Extermination... It Should be Published in the Arab and Iranian Press"


It's up to the arab to take the courageous step of questioning his faith
Abdelwahab Meddeb January 14, 2007

Nathalie Szerman - Memri

Reformist author Abdelwahab Meddeb was born in Tunisia in 1946, and has been living in Paris since 1968. He is the editor of the international French-language literary journal D?dale and professor of comparative literature at the University of Paris X in Nanterre. Meddeb has written several books, including La Maladie de l’Islam, [1] which aroused considerable interest around the world and has been translated into English, Arabic, German, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, and Turkish. The book discusses the relationship between Islam and the West in light of the history of Islamic thought, and in connection with today's violent political Islam. Meddeb argues in the book that Islam is afflicted with the illness of fundamentalism.

In September 2006, Meddeb published a book titled Contre-Pr?ches [2] (Counter-Preaching). The book was based on his weekly radio program, which is aimed at the large French-speaking community in North Africa and has been aired by the Moroccan station Radio Mediterranee Internationale since March 2003. Contre-Pr?ches is a collection of 115 essays on a variety of topics, including Islam, antisemitism, the veil, multiculturalism, and the fall of dictators.

The following is a review of Meddeb's views on these topics, as presented in La Maladie de l’Islam and Contre-Preches:

"Islamic Society Today Has Become a Prudish Society with an Aversion To Sensuality"

Meddeb argues that Islam has declined over time: "Islamic society used to be a society that delighted in pleasure, [a society] based on love of life. [Today], it has become a prudish [society] with an aversion to sensuality... The tradition of exalting the [human] body seems to have [completely] vanished from certain Islamic lands, which have been devastated by the order imposed [upon them] by half-literate people afflicted with resentment...

"Today, we are witnessing a strange reversal in the attitude towards the body. The society ["cit?"[ advocated by Islam [is one] whose members are afflicted with nihilism and resentment, whereas the Westerners have freed their bodies from traditional constraints... Those who adhere to Islam are not aware of this curious reversal, since they are so proud of their condition that they commend it to the 'depraved Western society' as a model of a virtuous society..." [3]

Meddeb is particularly critical of Wahhabi Islam, which in his view "makes [Muslims] forget their bodies, [all material] things and places, and [all things of physical] beauty." He says that "the rejection of all this inflicts the [Muslims] with general amnesia - which is one of the aspects of their malady." [4]

About Islamist terrorists, Meddeb says: "No criminal is more despicable than one who not only fails to feel any guilt after [committing] his [crime], but also harbors the illusion that this [crime] will bring him... divine reward. This conversion of bad into good not only spares him guilt, but also turns an unhappy person into a happy soul... " [5]


"The Current Antisemitism in Arab Countries is Directed Against Imaginary Jews"

According to Meddeb, one of the chief symptoms of the malady of Islam is resentment. This resentment is particularly strong, he says, regarding the West, and particularly regarding the Jews. It affects even secular Arab Muslims: "Preachers and even 'secular' editorialists view the disasters that have befallen their community through [the prism of] acute xenophobia: They invent an imaginary conspiracy and attribute it the other, who fulfils the role of the enemy. [Both] the faults of the collective and the shortcomings of individuals are attributed to the evil and malignant foreigner... What better way to rid oneself of responsibility after ridding oneself of guilt? [According to this view,] the Muslims' misery is caused by the West... and by Israel, whose success is a source of vexation [for the Muslims] in light of their own failure, which they are unable to acknowledge...

"Anti-Judaism is blended with anti-Zionism and turns into a kind of antisemitism, without [the Muslims] even realizing that this [antisemitism] is imported from the West... In the general confusion, a theological debate is confused with a political one, which is itself permeated with racist perversion. The wound inflicted by Israel on the Arab conscience remains exposed to every [kind of] putrid infection. No one is spared, not even the most open and least extremist minds, such as Sheikh Tantawi, one of the authoritative and reasonable voices of official Islam..." [6]

Meddeb notes that Islam has fought Judaism from the very beginning of its history in Medina: "...Faced with the newly-formed [Islamic] community, the Jews had to choose between converting and resisting. The Islamic anti-Judaism led to the massacre of the Jews in Medina, under the leadership of the Prophet. This initial anti-Judaism must be mentioned in order to distinguish it from European antisemitism, which has in recent years found fertile ground in Islamic countries...

"[European] antisemitism is rooted in the notion of a Jewish conspiracy aimed at taking over the world. This delusion inspired The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the Arabic translation of which is now widely circulated...

"One must bear in mind that in the Islamic tradition, anti-Judaism was aimed at Jews who were in an [inferior] position, in two ways: they were exiles, excluded from sovereignty, and they had the inferior legal status of People of the Book: a minority [tolerated] under Islamic rule. Current antisemitism, on the other hand, is aimed against Jews who have renewed their sovereignty in Israel, at the price of almost completely leaving the Arab and Islamic societies. This antisemitism is [therefore] directed against absent Jews that no one is familiar with, and whose ancient presence has been forgotten. [In other words], this hatred is directed against imaginary Jews - and nurtured by TV footage showing ferocious military power cold-bloodedly killing unarmed brothers reduced to throwing stones.

"This is why the current struggle against antisemitism in Islam must restore the memory of the once-friendly co-existence between Jews and Arabs, without concealing the events that occurred in the beginning of Islamic [history]..." [7]

Giving examples of the once friendly relationship between Jews and Arabs, he quotes Ibn Arabi (born in 1164 in Murcia and died in Damascus in 1240): "Owing to a similarity in sounds, Ibn Arabi connected the word 'Jew' (Yahudi) to the word hudan, which means 'good guidance'. Thus the Jew was associated with a pious man who does not deviate from the path of righteousness."

He further cites [8] "the numerous Jewish masterpieces from the Middle-Ages that were written in Arabic." A few of the authors he mentions are Moses Ben Ezra, Yehuda Halevi and Maimonides.


"The Testimony of Al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, Confirms the Nazi Extermination... It Should be Published in the Arab and Iranian Press"

Meddeb describes an antisemitic Friday sermon he recently heard at the Al-Azhar mosque in Cairo: "...I believe the speaker was the current [spiritual] guide of the Muslim Brotherhood, Muhammad Mahdi 'Akef. He was pounding his words like a political propagandist, yelling his advice and his threats from the heart of the mosque... He was condemning the passivity and cowardliness of the Mulsim countries and masses, while praising the Iranian president and his courageous stand, in particular with regards to Israel... A few days later the press published an announcement by the same 'Akef condoning the Iranian president's denial of the Holocaust. According to ['Akef, the Holocaust] is nothing but a myth intended to legitimize [the existence of] Israel...

"I remind all those who doubt the reality of the Holocaust that there is a direct Arab Muslim testimony to its [truth], namely the words of the Mufti of Jerusalem, [Amin] Al-Husseini, who was invited [to Germany] by the Nazis in light of his short-term alliance [with them] and owing to his anti-British attitude... In his memoirs, he recalls a conversation with Himmler in the summer of 1943. [The latter] told [him] that three million Jews had already been exterminated as part of the 'Final Solution,' according to a methodical and industrialized plan... This excerpt from Al-Husseini's memoirs should be published in the Arab and Iranian press..." [9]


"The Only Solution is to Acknowledge that All Koranic Verses Regarding Women's Inferiority are Obsolete"

Another main aspect of Islam's illness, according to Meddeb, is the inferior status of women. Meddeb states that this discrimination is unfortunately rooted in the Koran itself. He asks: "All those who want to... follow the founding scriptures are faced with a conundrum. What can they do in the face of a [Koranic] verse which explicitly establishes the superiority of men over women, [namely] verse 34 of Sura 4, which reads: 'Men have authority over women because God has favored one over the other...'

"The only solution for the women and men who [wish to follow] the Islamic faith while adapting to the modern [principle] of gender equality... is to acknowledge that all Koranic edicts regarding [women's inferiority] are obsolete, and that they are rooted in [historical] circumstances rather than in [immutable] principles...

"Nowadays, many women claim to be returning to their Islamic origins. This can only imply that they accept their subservient [status]. They cannot avoid this. We are told that women who don the veil are responsible for their choices and wish to take part in the 'Islamization' of the modern world... This phenomenon is another knot in the chain [that binds them]. The only way to get rid of this knot is to cut right through it. Only then will it be possible to save [the Islamic] faith in a healthy manner - without nurturing the kind of schizophrenia that is impossible to live with: seeking freedom while reinforcing the state of subservience.

"As for the veil - must we mention it again? Yes, it is necessary to harp on [this issue], since this phenomenon is becoming universal, and since the Arab satellite channels take part in propagating [this custom] by spreading feelings of guilt. Let me say out loud that [the veil] is the embodiment of all the laws which legitimate gender inequality... Muslim women, if you want to be modern, burn your veils!" [10]

"I see the veil as a sign of the inferior status of women and of an offense against women. To these young girls who claim to wear it out of their own free will, I say that they are [actually] under the influence [of an Islamic authority]... They demand that we respect their [right to] be different, but in fact they are only embracing the inferior legal status imposed upon them by the Koranic law...

"To those young girls who wear a veil, I say, first of all, that their attitude is outdated... As a child in Tunis in the 1950s, I saw women taking off their veils [even] in my traditional social circle. Back then, this development seemed irreversible. [Imagine how] surprised I was to witness the comeback of the veil in Paris, city of enlightenment and liberties..."

As proof to the fact that the veil is not simply the expression of the "right to be different," Meddeb notes that today the veil is "identical from Jakarta to Paris" and does not display the variety that characterizes individual expression: "[The phenomenon of the veil], as we see it today, is the result of political action... The transformation in the meaning of the veil reflects the metamorphosis [of Islam]. There is a world of difference between the veil as a traditional [custom] and what I call the 'ideological' veil... Today, veils are identical from Jakarta to Paris." [11]


Multiculturalism Promotes Islamism; "Only in the Maghreb Can We Win the Worldwide Cultural Battle Against the Islamists - Thanks to the FrenchInfluence"

Meddeb believes that multiculturalism fosters Islamism in the West. Commenting on the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, he writes: "[Van Gogh] rejected the multicultural society. He saw it as a means of legitimizing the emergence and propagation of Islamism, which is extremist, radical, and impossible to assimilate [into Western society], and which is in danger of infecting one million [Muslim] subjects living in the Netherlands." [12]

Meddeb further writes: "Great Britain is now paying the price of its incomprehensible tolerance towards these sowers of dissension, trouble, and apocalyptic [doom]. Obviously, the democratic tradition of this country, which gave birth to the [principle of] Habeas Corpus, is admirable. But [this principle] should not be implemented so scrupulously that it [undermines] other people's right to live." [13]

Meddeb points to the special role of the Maghreb in the struggle against Islamism: "As a result of the French influence, the entire northern Mediterranean region can become a laboratory of European thinking. Only here can we win the global cultural battle against the Islamists." [14]


"Unless Muslims Take a New Direction, One Can Reasonably Assume that Arab [Civilization], Constrained by the Framework of Islamic Faith, Will Join the Great Dead Civilizations…"

Meddeb believes that Islam has developed into an unproductive religion, and that Arabs today should rid themselves of the influence of Islam: "Imagine a meeting of representatives of the various civilizations: European, American, Japanese, Chinese, Indian, African, Arab, and Muslim. Each [representative] would be asked what his civilization could contribute to the humanity's present and future. What could the Arab Muslim offer? Nothing, except for Sufism, perhaps... Unless they take a new direction, one can reasonably assume that the Arab [civilization], constrained by the framework of Islamic faith, will join the great dead civilizations..."

"It is up to the Arab to take the courageous [step of] questioning [his faith] until he feels that Islam is a disease, until he reduces this useless and all-pervasive [influence] to the size of an insect, until he de-Islamizes his Arab identity. Then the lock may begin to break, and the doors [to freedom] may begin to open." [15]

Meddeb argues that reform begins with the willingness to accept criticism, especially from the European countries in which many Muslims reside: "...It is not up to Europe to adapt to Islam. It is up to Islam to learn how to accept criticism - even the most offensive criticism - without reverting to bloody acts of revenge. Muslims must understand that [even] the harshest criticism against Islam is justified in the light of the flagrant contradiction that exists between the developing world and the static morals [of Islam]." [16]


"What is Happening Around the World Teaches Us That It is Possible To Confront A Dictatorship And Triumph Over It"

Meddeb refers to Condoleezza Rice's statements, cited in The Washington Post, regarding the need to promote democracy in the Middle East. Rice rejected the claim that Islam is incompatible with democracy, and said that it reminded her of the attitude that prevailed in Alabama during her childhood, when it was widely believed that blacks could not develop intellectual abilities. Meddeb mentions Rice's statements to show how condescending it is to believe that Arab Islamic countries cannot be democratized. [17]

"[In fact], it is surprising to see how easily the dictator's [i.e. Saddam Hussein] establishment disintegrated, for when the dictator was in power, he terrorized the country and seemed impossible to remove. He functioned perfectly well and recruited numerous enthusiastic agents to keep his country in line... I can only wonder at the evident fragility of tyrants, once they are deposed, since on the eve [of their fall], they are [still] wrapped in mystique which rendered their image and person sacred." [18]

Meddeb holds that it was right to show the humiliation of Saddam Hussein on TV in the Arab world, since this put an end to a myth: "... I believe this was an education for the Arab masses who still worship dictators. They were forced to witness his degradation, and to see him dug out of his dark hole... without offering any resistance... [It was important for them] see him... transformed into a submissive victim so that the myth could be shattered. Such a fall... should be the lot of any dictator who forces the people to venerate his image..." [19]

Regarding the process of democratization in Iraq, Meddeb writes: "Never have the Arabs witnessed such an event - a member of a minority was elected president of a society which has an Arab majority, and which considers itself Arab. Here is Jalal Talabani, a Kurd heading the Iraqi state..." [20]

Meddeb also regards the fall of the Lebanese government on March 28, 2005 as a milestone for democracy in the Middle-East: "The fall of the Lebanese government is heartening because it was caused by popular pressure and set precedence in the Arab world. On the symbolic level, this event deserves to be inscribed [in the book of] great events in political [history]... We live at a time when the democratic process is in motion. What is happening around the world teaches us that it is possible to confront a dictatorship and triumph over it."


"The Syrian Regime Failed to Realize that the World Has Changed"; "Democracy Is Indeed in Full Swing"

"But this process does not move forward if it is not fueled by the people's desire to overcome the obstacle which keeps them [in a state of] lethargy. The truth is that all dictatorships survive owing to the consent of the masses, [owing to the masses'] willingness to be subjugated..."

"It is the sacrifice of Rafiq Al-Hariri that triggered the popular protests [in Lebanon]. The Lebanese people refused to be intimidated by the attacks and the political message they conveyed. Syria had accustomed us to these methods, but the [Syrian] regime failed to realize that the world has changed. Its old methods had the opposite effect [to the one intended]...

"Democratization is indeed in full swing [now]. Elections have been held in Iraq. Two sectors have received recognition - a religious sector, the Shiites, and an ethnic sector, the Kurds - who had known nothing but total rejection for years. A new path is being carved out for the Middle East, in which all former practices - so beloved by Syria - seem obsolete and counter-effective... " [21]



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Nathalie Szerman is Director of MEMRI's North African Reformists Project.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Seuil, Paris, 2002. The book was also published in English: Malady of Islam, Basic Books, New York, 2003.

[2] Seuil, Paris, 2006

[3] La Maladie de l'Islam, pp. 135-139.

[4] La Maladie de l'Islam, p. 141.

[5] Contre-Preches, p. 362.

[6] La Maladie de l'Islam, pp. 129-133.

[7] Contre-Preches, pp. 104-105.

[8] Contre-Preches, pp. 106-108.

[9] Contre-Preches, pp. 458-459.

[10] Contre-Preches, pp. 263-266.

[11] Contre-Preches, pp. 56-58.

[12] Contre-Preches, p. 249.

[13] Contre-Preches, p. 401.

[14] Die Zeit, September 21, 2006, http://www.signandsight.com/features/978.html.

[15] Contre-Preches, pp. 42-43.

[16] Contre-Preches, p. 250.

[17] Contre-Preches, p. 114.

[18] Contre-Preches, p. 38.

[19] Contre-Preches, p. 134.

[20] Contre-Preches, p. 328.

[21] Contre-Preches, pp. 314-317.
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  #47  
Old 01-29-2007, 07:11 PM
MAD1 MAD1 is offline
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IamJ:
Folks will always have an opinion a decision has to be made whether to go north or south. We watch and ponder, that's all we can do..when we mix our mixed attitudes we compound the problem.
There is a stability in Jesus as Christ..I said Jesus as Christ . Anybody who is anti-Jew is anti most everything else. You or maybe I should say the children of Jacob who became Israel by name are a few folks not like India or China or even Iran so the squeaking wheel gets the grease..I'm saying if you are silent GOD will improve on his promise to your special folks..Christ told you so.
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  #48  
Old 01-29-2007, 07:44 PM
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john shavluk john shavluk is offline
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wow,,comprehend-able,,,

a little subdued this morning sad 1?

to be perfectly honest reading all of this assorted whining from amj ,,,well i can see why some want to put people like him out of their misery
get a life and stop with the squeakiness,,,no one cares,,get it!

all that have such hatred for what some who are long dead did are just assoholic's,,,,,,,,idiots
my own grandfather would have slit this jews guts and watched him slowly die as he defecated on him,,,,,
a jew killed the leader of the Ukrainian freedom fighting army that my grandfather was part of,,,just for money,,,the jew shot our leader in the head 6 times.
so this will be the last time i ever respond to such stupid repetitive garbage about the poor jews ,,especially when the Africans can not even eat!!!

any religion that brainwashes its followers into thinking they are chosen and above or different than others,,,, are not,,whether they be jews or muslims
healthy and all will be destroyed when the philosophy of my kind gets power

it will be frowned upon to speak of any god ,, as superior
amj,, is as dense as macp , todd korson,,,,maybe a lot here have dual identities,,,korson is a jew cop?
i don't blame them ,if they are,i would not want to put my real name to some of the crap these damaged people say


anyway sad 1 ,,i just wanted to say this last post was easier to read,,
and as some actually do read ,, here,,thanks
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  #49  
Old 01-30-2007, 07:40 AM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john shavluk
a jew killed the leader of the Ukrainian freedom fighting army that my grandfather was part of,,,just for money,,,the jew shot our leader in the head 6 times.

Prove it. Jews were minorities and you are one hell of a lier.
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  #50  
Old 01-30-2007, 08:01 AM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
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Originally Posted by MAD1
I'm saying if you are silent GOD will improve on his promise to your special folks..Christ told you so.
No sir. This was told before christianity existed. Its called the law of precedence, which is not dented by the majority factor. If you measure jews by what the NT says, should Muslims also measure you according to the Quran? Silence did not help jews in Europe nor in Arabia. Why can't you follow your faith without resting its fulcrum factor on another people - as tho if jews are not prophet killers - your entire faith becomes silenced - that's all that your saying. Show me some prophets killed by Jews outside the NT - you have 4000 years to chose from, with more prophets listed there than any other peoples? Of coz you can't - because it is your own, immediate pre-christian people who did all the killings. This truth needs no oiling - only a lie does.

A DESIRED FALSEHOOD MAY BE PRFERABLE TO AN UNDESIRABLE TRUTH - BUT TRUTH IS AN INSOLUBLE SUBSTANCE AND BOPS UP IN THE END - IT WINS IN THE FINAL COUNT.
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  #51  
Old 01-30-2007, 09:34 PM
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john shavluk john shavluk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamJoseph
Prove it. Jews were minorities and you are one hell of a lier.




you are an asshole,,,,


learn history ,,, its no wonder what happens in this world,,
with your kind of extinct dna and such stupidity still around!!






http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1262
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  #52  
Old 01-30-2007, 09:48 PM
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Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust

Eric Margolis – Toronto Sun November 16, 2003

Five years ago, I wrote about the unknown Holocaust in Ukraine. I was shocked to receive a flood of mail from young Americans and Canadians of Ukrainian descent telling me that until they read my column, they knew nothing of the 1932-33 genocide in which Josef Stalin's Soviet regime murdered seven million Ukrainians and sent two million more to concentration camps.

How, I wondered, could such historical amnesia afflict so many? For Jews and Armenians, the genocides their people suffered are vivid, living memories that influence their daily lives. Yet today, on the 70th anniversary of the destruction of a quarter of Ukraine's population, this titanic crime has almost vanished into history's black hole.

So has the extermination of the Don Cossacks by the communists in the 1920s, the Volga Germans in 1941 and mass executions and deportations to concentration camps of Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians and Poles. At the end of World War II, Stalin's gulag held 5.5 million prisoners, 23% of them Ukrainians and 6% Baltic peoples.
Almost unknown is the genocide of two million of the USSR's Muslim peoples: Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Tajiks, Bashkirs and Kazaks. The Chechen independence fighters who today are branded as "terrorists" by the U.S. and Russia are the grandchildren of survivors of Soviet concentration camps.

Add to this list of forgotten atrocities the murder in Eastern Europe from 1945-47 of at least two million ethnic Germans, mostly women and children, and the violent expulsion of 15 million more Germans, during which two million German girls and women were raped.

Among these monstrous crimes, Ukraine stands out as the worst in terms of numbers. Stalin declared war on his own people in 1932, sending Commissars V. Molotov and Lazar Kaganovitch and NKVD secret police chief Genrikh Yagoda to crush the resistance of Ukrainian farmers to forced collectivization.

Ukraine was sealed off. All food supplies and livestock were confiscated. NKVD death squads executed "anti-party elements." Furious that insufficient Ukrainians were being shot, Kaganovitch - virtually the Soviet Union's Adolf Eichmann - set a quota of 10,000 executions a week. Eighty percent of Ukrainian intellectuals were shot.

During the bitter winter of 1932-33, 25,000 Ukrainians per day were being shot or died of starvation and cold. Cannibalism became common. Ukraine, writes historian Robert Conquest, looked like a giant version of the future Bergen-Belsen death camp.

The mass murder of seven million Ukrainians, three million of them children, and deportation to the gulag of two million more (where most died) was hidden by Soviet propaganda. Pro-communist westerners, like The New York Times' Walter Duranty, British writers Sidney and Beatrice Webb and French Prime Minister Edouard Herriot, toured Ukraine, denied reports of genocide, and applauded what they called Soviet "agrarian reform." Those who spoke out against the genocide were branded "fascist agents."

The U.S., British, and Canadian governments, however, were well aware of the genocide, but closed their eyes, even blocking aid groups from going to Ukraine.

The only European leaders to raise a cry over Soviet industrialized murder were, ironically and for their own cynical and self-serving reasons, Hitler and Italian dictator Benito Mussolini.

Because Kaganovitch, Yagoda and some other senior Communist party and NKVD officials were Jewish, Hitler's absurd claim that communism was a Jewish plot to destroy Christian civilization became widely believed across a fearful Europe.

When war came, U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt and British PM Winston Churchill allied themselves closely to Stalin, though they were well aware his regime had murdered at least 30 million people long before Hitler's extermination of Jews and gypsies began. Yet in the strange moral calculus of mass murder, only Germans were guilty. Though Stalin murdered three times more people than Hitler, to Roosevelt he remained "Uncle Joe."

The British-U.S. alliance with Stalin made them his partners in crime. Roosevelt and Churchill helped preserve history's most murderous regime, to which they handed over half of Europe in 1945. After the war, the left tried to cover up Soviet genocide. Jean-Paul Sartre denied the gulag even existed.

For the western Allies, Nazism was the only evil; they could not admit being allied to mass murderers. For the Soviets, promoting the Jewish Holocaust perpetuated anti-fascism and masked their own crimes. The Jewish people, understandably, saw their Holocaust as a unique event. It was Israel's raison d'etre. Raising other genocides at that time would, they feared, diminish their own. This was only human nature. While today, academia, the media and Hollywood rightly keep attention focused on the Jewish Holocaust, they mostly ignore Ukraine. We still hunt Nazi killers, but not communist killers. There are few photos of the Ukraine genocide or Stalin's gulag, and fewer living survivors. Dead men tell no tales.

Russia never prosecuted any of its mass murderers, as Germany did. We know all about the crimes of Nazis Adolf Eichmann and Heinrich Himmler; about Babi Yar and Auschwitz.

But who remembers Soviet mass murderers Dzerzhinsky, Kaganovitch, Yagoda, Yezhov and Beria? Were it not for writer Alexander Solzhenitsyn, we might never know of Soviet death camps like Magadan, Kolyma and Vorkuta. Movie after movie appears about Nazi evil, while the evil of the Soviet era vanishes from view or dissolves into nostalgia.The souls of Stalin's millions of victims still cry out for justice.

Courtesy David Morgan and togethernet







almost my whole family was starved , raped , tortured ,abused or just shot

you are a jerk and if you do not think other cultures have had just as much abuse as your kind well you are delusional
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  #53  
Old 01-30-2007, 10:24 PM
MAD1 MAD1 is offline
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You don't know how....

[quote=john shavluk]Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust



It would be a mis-quote to say "You don't know how much better I feel, as this is the first I have heard of the magnitude of utter disrepect for life ..JUST CAUSE !!!
. I can't see the economic reason for the mass murders as the white boys just plain wanted our land and wren't strong enough in numbers and still aren't , but Indians have souls and spirits so some things only mean a better thing will be here in the morning, what goes around will always come around..I am forgiving, and We gave them Tobacco hahaha..but damnnnnnnnnnnnnn John...May your heart find peace. IamJ I think your hart rest inside the OT and not in your body.
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Old 01-31-2007, 12:27 AM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
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Originally Posted by john shavluk
my own grandfather would have slit this jews guts and watched him slowly die as he defecated on him,,,,,
I say, the results define the source, and you evidence this well. You have also disproved Darwin: A SEED DOES FOLLOW ITS OWN KIND. Its called MIRROW IMAGE today. If I feel dirty being in the same solar system as your kind, least I can do is say goodbye to a place which is inhabited by such. I reakon even maggots would'nt go near your source.

Sayonara - a volunray action from Zion.
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  #55  
Old 01-31-2007, 02:06 AM
MAD1 MAD1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamJoseph
I say, the results define the source, and you evidence this well. You have also disproved Darwin: A SEED DOES FOLLOW ITS OWN KIND. Its called MIRROW IMAGE today. If I feel dirty being in the same solar system as your kind, least I can do is say goodbye to a place which is inhabited by such. I reakon even maggots would'nt go near your source.

Sayonara - a volunray action from Zion.
IamJ ..You are talking to me not John...Slow down and count to TEN as in 10 C's...Please don't think that you or the OT can change the multiple personalities and frowning opions, INstead stay where I the least of anyone, need you know, John and I agree on an issue but we ain't going to bed...
Take a damn break....If you need a Holiday send me an-e ... 1

In Chrsit name ....
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  #56  
Old 01-31-2007, 03:01 AM
Kris Kris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john shavluk
Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust
Only two sentence:

1. Each day is a next holocaust of innocent peope somewhere.

2. The bad people see and remember own loses only.
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  #57  
Old 01-31-2007, 03:47 AM
MAD1 MAD1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris
Only two sentence:

1. Each day is a next holocaust of innocent peope somewhere.

2. The bad people see and remember own loses only.
WOW Kris....

are U that deep ...???

MAD1
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  #58  
Old 01-31-2007, 05:15 AM
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john shavluk john shavluk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamJoseph
I say, the results define the source, and you evidence this well. You have also disproved Darwin: A SEED DOES FOLLOW ITS OWN KIND. Its called MIRROW IMAGE today. If I feel dirty being in the same solar system as your kind, least I can do is say goodbye to a place which is inhabited by such. I reakon even maggots would'nt go near your source.

Sayonara - a volunray action from Zion.


my grandfather told me everything,, he was university educated,, ran a coop store,,,every time his hands healed the Russians sledge hammered them again,,,,i have never seen more damaged flesh since!!!!

he was disappointed he could not make me hate,,the jews , i would say ""but the people that did that were killed or the ones responsible are not a whole culture or religion"


i already said some are from extinct species,,,my grandfather was one of them


although if my wife or children were killed by a suicide bomber ,,i would certainly question my government for some to want go to such extremes

think about how f cked you would have to be to blow yourself up!!

i would not hate the whole race,,,, if some one hurt any one around me

i would kill them if i had to,,no question or problem,,,

as they say ,,god can forgive you,,, i am no god
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  #59  
Old 02-01-2007, 01:20 AM
Kris Kris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john shavluk
my grandfather told me everything,, he was university educated,, ran a coop store,,,every time his hands healed the Russians sledge hammered them again,,,,i have never seen more damaged flesh since!!!!
Because you do not "ponial" my last post than let say straight:

1. Your nation was a whip in zar hands: the Cossacs played main role to kill people who fight for independence in Russia: like in Gorgia, Lituania, Poland and especially in Russia. They were the same like SS in Germany.

2. Your nation is famious for colaboration with occupaing forces: worked with Vikings, worked with Islam Turki, worked with Russian orthodox Russia, worked with Catholic Poland, worked with Protestant nazi Germany and so on.

3. Your worriers were always a dogs of the war. They established another division of Hitlers SS army - the SS-Galizien.

4. Your national organization like UPA and so on killed millions of neighbours during WWII:hundreds thousends of Jews, Polish, Gipsy, Ukrainiens is extrimely terrible way: e.. by crucifiction of kids on fences, by burning, mutilation and so on.
They also were responsible for millions of raps of women and girls.

5. Your country is responsible for the force evacuation of millions of your neighbers e.g. Polish, Jews and others after WWII.

Should I cry reading your history?
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  #60  
Old 02-01-2007, 04:18 AM
eiselg eiselg is offline
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Of all the people on earth the Russians and Jews had the most represssion posed upon them. The Russians lost 21 million to the Natzies and the Jews lost 8 million but with a much lower population. The Germans didn't have it so good ether, they lost a whole generation. Throughout history millions have been murdered for religion, pillaging, land or resources. We all share the same genes and are human each capable of unimaginable deeds if the conditions are right. Even here in America we still use war to solve problems instead of cheaper, better ways. Personally I can't stand seeing anyone torchered, or misused or killed. My dad came here from Germany after the first world war. He wanted to Go to Brazil because he wanted to go to a place that didn't have many wars. He ended up in Michigan copper mines even though he was a tool and die maker. When he was a boy he picked up newspapers with his wagon and delivered them to a jewish recycler with the same name. My dad liked the guy and felt terrible about what may have happened to him. He also worried about if we had Jewish ancestory. Religion played a nasty part in the treatment of the Jews during the Bubonic plague the Germans blamed them for everything and killed them. Superstition is a nasty thing.
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