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Old 10-01-2006, 10:20 PM
iris89 iris89 is offline
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Islam is Delusional - Does Not Recognize Facts

Islam is Delusional - Does Not Recognize Facts

INTRODUCTION:

Many in Islam are delusional and do not recognize reality as will be clearly shown using some of their writings and bouncing them against the facts. Makes one think of John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (Authorized King James Bible; AV).

This fact is clearly shown by the inability of many to distinguish between cause and effect in the crisis between Lebanon (Hezbollah) and Israel (year 2006). Many point to the number killed and which side did it, i.e., hospital in Israel and town of Qana in Lebanon, but ignore the fact that both are but effects of a causative act. Now the causative act that resulted in so much adverse effects, destruction and death, was a surprise unprovoked across boarder attack by a criminal organization, Hezbollah, given tacit approval by the government of Lebanon who even permits members of this group to be members of its parliament. So this attack was the 'trigger' and/or cause responsible for all the adverse effects, death and destruction, that results; therefore, total responsibility for all the effects rest solely on this criminal organization and the Lebanese government for permitting their operation in Lebanon.

The same holds true for Islam's belief in ERROR put forth by greedy Ishmalites that the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael that Ishmael was the promised seed; whereas, in reality it was Isaac as made clear at Genesis 17:19-21, "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year." (AV).
So this scripture makes it clear that Isaac is the line through which the covenant is made, and NOT Ishmael, who was only stated to become a 'great nation.'

Now let's look at the detail of what a member of Islam said bounced against the truth, reality, the facts.

SELF-DECEPTION PART 1:

One member of Islam said, <<" Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. [Genesis 12:1-3]

God in this verse is speaking to Abraham and NOT the Jews or Isaac exclusively. Abraham's "nation" was through prophet Isaac (through which Moses and Jesus were born) AND ALSO through prophet Ishamel (through which prophet Muhammad (pbuh)) was born. So you cannot filter out the Muslims here.">>, but missed what was said at Genesis 17:15-22, "And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. 17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? 18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. 22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham." (AV). So as can be seen from verse 19 and 22 that the everlasting covenant would be ONLY through Abraham's seed through Isaac and NOT through Abraham's seed through Ishmael.

So we can see that many in Islam delude themselves with respect whether the everlasting covenant was established with both Ishmael and Isaac; when in reality it WAS ONLY ESTABLISHED with Isaac.

SELF-DECEPTION PART 2:

One member of Islam said, <<""A great Nation" Who is the "great nation" in the world that was promissed in that verse? It is a fact the Muslims are all over the world and Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, starting 600 years after Christianity.

"and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing"
When Muslims prayer 5 times a day, we mention Abraham by name and mentions the blessings that Allah had bestowed on Him and his descendants. We say:

"O Allah, bless our Muhammad and the people of Muhammad; As you have blessed Abraham and the people of Abraham. Surely you are the Praiseworthy, the Glorious. O Allah, be gracious unto Muhammad and the people of Muhammad; As you were gracious unto Abraham and the people of Abraham. Surely you are the Praiseworthy, the Glorious" (http://muslim-canada.org/salaat.html#salawat)

We repeat this no less than 15 times during the 5 daily prayers in a day. And those who perform additional prayers, they recite these words many more times. At any moment in time, people are praying one of their prescribed 5 daily prayers around the world, some are praying (1) the morning prayer before sunrise, some are praying (2) the afternoon prayer, some, (3) the evening prayer before sunset, some, (4) the evening prayer after sunset and some, (5) the night prayer. And consider that everyday millions of Muslims are praying 5 times a day around the world, and if you add this up, that it a lot of praising and glorifying the Holy Prophet and Abraham and his decendants (pbut) constantly all the time.">>, but clearly overlook once more the fact that, yes, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham said Ishmael would be a great nation per Genesis 17:20, "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation." (AV). However, nowhere did the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael EVER SAY THE EVERLASTING COVENANT would come through Ishmael's line, but clearly said it would come through the line of Isaac, his half brother the son of Abraham's wife Sarah at Genesis 17:4-17, "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. 15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. 17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? 18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him." (AV). As can clearly be seen, deluded members of Islam look at Genesis 17:7-9 and say Ah we are the everlasting covenant people, but fail to notice Genesis 17:15-16 and Genesis 17:19 which clearly shows they ARE NOT PART OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT as that comes through Abraham's seed Isaac and NOT Ishmael.

This fact is clearly noted in a world renown Bible commentary as follows, <<"19, 20. The blessings of the covenant are reserved for Isaac, but common blessings were abundantly promised to Ishmael; and though the visible Church did not descend from his family, yet personally he might, and it is to be hoped did, enjoy its benefits." [source - Jamieson, Faussett, Brown (JFB) Commentary]>>; and in the Eclectic Notes on The Bible, <<"thou shalt call his name Isaac: Abraham intercedes for Ishmael, but God dwells on Isaac- 'Laughter'. Faith can laugh when God acts purely from Himself, and in His own power. Abraham could not laugh over Ishmael, because what was of the flesh came in there, but the one who could laugh over Isaac could pray, in the sense of grace, for Ishmael. Ishmael speaks of Israel according to the flesh. God would bless him in hearing prayer-a finger-post to blessing for Israel if they had taken note of it- but Isaac was the one with whom His covenant would be established, the One brought in in resurrection power, as Rom. 4 would suggest. God's goodness was there for Ishmael. He ever cared for stubborn and rebellious Israel-a nation truly like Ishmael, "a wild ass of a man". But whenever a cry of need came, even from perverse and rebellious Israel, God heard it. Ishmael's history would have been most instructive for Israel if they had taken heed to it. God was saying to them by it, If you only cry to me you will get blessing. But they were too proud to take the place of need, and therefore they missed the blessing. They claimed the privileges of the covenant without realising what was involved in the sign of the covenant. Therefore they did not keep the covenant; they always had confidence in the flesh; they were never truly circumcised. God had to tell them that they were uncircumcised in heart and ears. And that is why they are now fallen and cut off. Their history is a solemn warning to all who take up divine things in a fleshly way." [source - Eclectic Notes on The Bible]>>; and the Geneva Bible Footnotes says, <<"17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an {g} everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

(g) The everlasting covenant is made with the children of the Spirit. A temporary promise is made with the children of the flesh, as was promised to Ishmael." [source - Geneva Bible Footnotes of 1599]>>. So it can be seen they have deluded themselves once more by not considering the Biblical caveats.

SELF-DECEPTION PART 3:

One member of Islam said, <<" Also, muslims go to Pilgrimage to Makkah, where Abraham and Ishmael built the House of God (Holy Ka'ba) and we perform many rituals which commemorate many of the important events concenring Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael, such as throwing seven pebbles at Satan, 'running' seven times between two mountains, slaughtering animals (to commemorate the sacrifice of Ishmael) etc.

In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites. [Genesis 15:18-21]

Again, notice how God is saying to Abraham that "Unto thy seed..." (i.e. descendants). Looks like Christians and Jews forget the Ishmael was also the descendent of Abraham. The promissed land was outlined to ABRAHAM and his descendants, and not to the Jews or Isaac exclusively.">>.

First, the part of the claim that Abraham and Ishmael built the Ka'ba is pure pagan myth, and the Bible says absolutely nothing about the myth, but here are some facts and resources to consider:

First set of references:
1. "We used to consider (i.e. going around) them a [pagan] custom of the Pre-islamic period of Ignorance, so when Islam came, we gave up going around them. Then Allah revealed" "Verily, Safa and Marwa (i.e. two mountains at Mecca) are among the Symbols of Allah. So it is not harmful of those who perform the Hajj of the House (of Allah) or perform the Umra to ambulate (Tawaf) between them." (2.158) (Hadith, al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 22-23)
2. Regarding the two little hills of Safa and Marwa, "Unfortunately the Pagan Arabs had placed a male and a female idol here, and their gross and superstitious rites caused offence to the early Muslims. They felt some hesitation in going round these places during the Pilgrimage. As a matter of fact they should have known that the Ka'ba (the House of God) had been itself defiled with idols, and was sanctified again by the purity of Muhammad's life and teaching. (The holy Qur'an, text, translation and commentary, by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. 1872-1952, First published in 1938, 1973 ed., p. 62, footnote 160, commenting on 2:158)
3. Ibn al 'Arabi (A.H. 543) reports from ibn Sihab that 'Urwa said: "I asked 'Aisha, "What is your view of Q 2:158?: 'There shall be no blame on him who performs tawaf between Safsa and Marwa.' Surely there can be no blame on anyone who does not perform this tawaf?" 'Aisha replied that were the case as 'Urwa supposed, the verse would read: 'There shall be no blame on him who does not perform the tawaf.' The Ansar, feeling certain scruples about this ceremony, on account of the locality's former association with idols, consulted the Prophet. God revealed Q 2.158. The Prophet then laid down the sunna of performing the tawaf. It is thus incumbent upon pilgrims not to omit it. (Abu Bakr Muhammad b. 'Abdulla b. al 'Arabi, Ahkam al Qur'an, 4 vols (Cairo, 1957/1376), vol 1, p.46, quoted by John Burton, The Collection of the Qur'an, p. 12)
4. "One of the companions said to Anas ibn Malik, 'Did you use to hate running between the Safa and Marwa?' He said, 'Yes, because it was part of the pre-Islamic rituals until God gave Muhammad this verse and proclaimed that it was also one of God's ceremonial rites"' (refer to Sahih of al-Bukhari, volume 2, page 195).
5. Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: To run along the valley between two green pillars of Safa and Marwa (mountains) was not Sunna, but the people in the pre-islamic period of ignorance used to run along it, and used to say: "We do not cross this rain stream except running strongly. " (Hadith, al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 186)
6. Narrated Urwa: I said to 'Aisha, the wife of the Prophet, and I was at that time a young boy, "How do you interpret the Statement of Allah: "Verily, Safa and Marwa (i.e. two mountains at Mecca) are among the Symbols of Allah." So it is not harmful of those who perform the Hajj to the House of Allah) or perform the Umra, to ambulate (Tawaf) between them. In my opinion it is not sinful for one not to ambulate (Tawaf) between them." 'Aisha said, "Your interpretation is wrong for as you say, the Verse should have been: "So it is not harmful of those who perform the Hajj or Umra to the House, not to ambulate (Tawaf) between them.' This Verse was revealed in connection with the Ansar who (during the Pre-Islamic Period) used to visit Manat (i.e. an idol) after assuming their Ihram, and it was situated near Qudaid (i.e. a place at Mecca), and they used to regard it sinful to ambulate between Safa and Marwa after embracing Islam. When Islam came, they asked Allah's Apostle about it, whereupon Allah revealed:-- "Verily, Safa and Marwa (i.e. two mountains at Mecca) are among the Symbols of Allah. So it is not harmful of those who perform the Hajj of the House (of Allah) or perform the Umra, to ambulate (Tawaf) between them." "Narrated 'Asim bin Sulaiman: I asked Anas bin Malik about Safa and Marwa. Anas replied, "We used to consider (i.e. going around) them a custom of the Pre-islamic period of Ignorance, so when Islam came, we gave up going around them. Then Allah revealed" "Verily, Safa and Marwa (i.e. two mountains at Mecca) are among the Symbols of Allah. So it is not harmful of those who perform the Hajj of the House (of Allah) or perform the Umra to ambulate (Tawaf) between them." (2.158) (Hadith, al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 22-23)
7. Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah's Apostle performed Tawaf of the Ka'ba and the Sa'i of Safa and Marwa so as to show his strength to the pagans. (Hadith, al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 710-711)
8. "The demons in the Jahiliyya used to circumnavigate all night around these two mountains. The idols (were erected) between them. When Islam came, they (Muslims) said, 'O, apostle of God, we would never run between the Safa and Marwa because this is an unfavorable matter which we were accustomed to do in the Jahiliyya.' Thus, God gave this verse" (refer to Asbab al-Nuzul by Suyuti, page 27).
9. "Asaf and Nayelah, the former the image of a man, the latter of a woman, were also two idols brought with Hobal from Syria, and placed the one on Mount Safa, and the other on Mount Merwa" (Preliminary Discourse to the Koran, Sale, p. 22, 1801).

Second set of references:
1. "curious set of ceremonies of pagan Arab origin which Mohammed has incorporated into his religion" (Hurgronje, Mohammedanism, p. 160)
2. The rites of the Kaaba were retained, but stripped of all idolatrous tendency, they still hang, a strange unmeaning shroud, around the living theism of Islam. (The Original Sources of the Qur'an, William St. Clair Tisdall, 1905)
3. Muslim scholars have also been constrained to admit that Muhammad adopted the pagan Arab pilgrimage en bloc into Islam, seeking to justify it on the historical fiction that Abraham was its originator and that later generations perverted its monotheistic origin and emphasis. (Muhammad and the Religion of Islam, John Gilchrist)
4. We cannot accept, however, the claim that the ceremonies as practiced today were first performed by Abraham. It is historically illogical to assume that they survived unchanged through centuries of pagan Arab custom while idol-worship became the order of the day. The most probable reasons for Muhammad's acceptance of the Hajj ceremonies have already been given in this book - the honour bestowed on him before his mission when he was appointed to replace the Black Stone in the Ka'aba and his constant search for a means whereby he might reconcile himself to his pagan countrymen. It is highly significant that Meccan opposition to Muhammad's cause collapsed immediately after he and his followers had performed the pilgrimage - the exact rites performed by the pagan Arabs, excluding the worship of their idols - a year after the Treaty of Hudaybiyah had allowed them to do so. (Muhammad and the Religion of Islam, John Gilchrist)
5. "It is, therefore, in these absurd rites of the Hajj that Islam finds its severest condemnation, and the falsity of Muhammad's pretended revelations is amply demonstrated. The Hajj was Muhammad's compromise with Arabian Paganism." (The Sources of Islam, Blair, p. 162; quoted in Muhammad and the Religion of Islam, John Gilchrist)
6. Perhaps the greatest irony of this whole ceremony is that its origin should be attributed to Abraham, a man who, according to the Qur'an, detested idols made of stone and destroyed them (Surah 37. 91-93). For the whole emphasis of the pilgrimage falls on stones. The Muslims circumambulate the Ka'aba, an empty shrine made of stones, kiss the Black Stone built into it, and pray at the maqam-i-Ibrahim in front of which stands a small shrine containing another stone (the qadam-i-Ibrahim) on which Abraham allegedly stood while building the Ka'aba (it is supposed to bear his footprint). Arafat is a plain on which the Mount of Mercy stands - covered with stones and a stone monolith commemorating Muhammad's farewell sermon. At Mina the pilgrims throw small stones at larger stone pillars. Surely it is almost ridiculous to believe that the great patriarch - the exemplar of true faith in those very early days - was the author of ceremonies whose rites were vested in stones, the very things from which the pagan idols were made. (Muhammad and the Religion of Islam, John Gilchrist)
7. "This last was a magnificent stroke of policy, besides satisfying his own insuppressible hankering after Mecca and its fetish, for it bound the Meccans, and the Mecca-visiting Arabs to the new regime and faith as nothing else could have done." (The Reproach of Islam, Gairdner, p.71, referring to Muhammad's choice to perform the pagan pilgrimage; quoted in Muhammad and the Religion of Islam, John Gilchrist)
8. The Ka'bah was then the holy of holies of paganism and securely protected against any attack against its authorities or sanctity. (The Life of Muhammad, Haykal, p. 43; quoted in Muhammad and the Religion of Islam, John Gilchrist)
9. "the Arabian situation was polytheistic at the time of the first surviving records of it. (Britannica, Arabian Religions, p1059, 1979)
10. Commenting on the evolution of religion in Arabia: "Another significant change was that a monotheistic religion, with "the Lord of Heaven and Earth" as the sole god, had become the faith of the state. Formerly the religion of South Arabia had been basically stellar, with 'Athtar holding the senior place as the patron of land and agriculture and, in Ma'in, even of trade. Each state or tribe had had its own moon god under a national or local name. The temples had been centres of religious life, and the priests of the moon gods had normally provided oracle services. Pilgrimage had been performed to certain temples of the moon gods, with rituals similar in many details to those of the pre-Islamic and Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca. Minor deities of agriculture and irrigation had been known, especially in Saba', as well as house gods and genies. The tribe Amir had practiced a semi-monotheistic religion-that of Dhii-Samdwi (Lord of Heavens). They worshipped no other god, although they paid homage to the gods of other communities in which they occasionally found themselves. The god's name resembles that of the "Lord of Heaven and Earth" of the monotheistic religion that emerged in the 5th century, but it is not known whether the latter developed from it." (Britannica, Arabia, History of, p1045, 1979)
11. The question of pilgrimage which was an element foreign to nomadic civilization and of a late date among Semitic peoples (Studies on Islam, edited by Merlin L. Swartz, Pre-Islamic Bedouin Religion, by Joseph Henninger, 1981, p 3-22)
12. IV. The Ka'ba In Legend And Superstition. The alleged religion of Abraham gave a basis for the esteem in which the Muslims held the Ka'ba. Legend attached itself to the Kur'anic statements and spun them out. As Snouck Ilurgronje has proved in his Mekkaansche Feest against Dozy's hypotheses (see his Israelielen in Mekka), there can be no question of a local Meccan tradition in this connection. There was, it is true, a local tradition, but it consists of semi-historical reminiscences of the last few centuries before Islam. But all that tradition relates regarding the origin of the Ka'ba and its connections with Biblical personages, belongs to Islamic legend. (First Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, 1987, Islam, p. 587-591)
13. On the other hand Muslim legend has developed the passage, Sura iii. 90: "Truly, the first temple that was founded for men is that in Bakka; a blessed house and a guidance for (all) creatures". The ambiguous expression according to which lbrahim and Isma'il "raised" the foundations of the Ka'ba left room for the view that the foundations already existed on which he erected the building. (First Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, 1987, Islam, p. 587-591)
14. This legendary story of the origin of the Ka'ba was easily brought into conformity with the cosmological views current among Christians and Jews in the East, the central point of which was the sanctuary itself. Muslim tradition at first adopted this cosmology completely, as is evident from the statements which are still wholly under the influence of the predominance of Jerusalem. They were however not content with this and transferred a considerable part of these sayings to Mecca. (First Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, 1987, Islam, p. 587-591)
15. The Islamic tradition furnishes several clues about the possible anthro-pological origins of the Ka'ba. Like several other shrines in Arabia, it was part of a haram, or sacred area, where intertribal fighting was forbidden in order to facilitate trade. The temple was evidently at the centre of a cult involving idol worship. The presiding deity was Hubal, a large carnelian statue kept inside the temple; 36o other idols were ranged outside. The three goddesses described in the Quran as the 'daughters of Allah' - Allat, 'Uzza and Manat - were also worshipped in the vicinity. By the Prophet's time Christian influences were making themselves felt. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
16. Like the Quran itself, the earliest Muslim sources suggest that the pre-Islamic cult of the Ka'ba had some astronomical significance. The historian Mas'udi (896-956) stated that certain people had regarded the Ka'ba as a temple dedicated to the Sun, Moon and the five visible planets (making up the mystical figure of seven, the number of circumambulations required for each tawaf ). The story that there were exactly 36o idols placed round the temple also points to an astronomical significance. Among the votive gifts said to have been offered to the idols were golden suns and moons. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
17. They may then drink and fill their jars with Zamzam water before proceeding to the sa'i - running between the hillocks of Safa and Marwa, in imitation of Hagar's plight. The whole distance, some 460 metres, has to be covered seven times at something between a walk and a jog. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
18. The strain of performing the sa'i, in which the pilgrim must travel some 3.5 kilometres, has been to some extent relieved by the architects who have enclosed the whole passage inside a long air-conditioned gallery. The marble-flanked walkway includes a special corridor where the old, infirm or disabled can be pushed along in wheelchairs. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
19. The pilgrim who continues to make the Hajj, which only takes place at the appointed season, leaves the haram area after performing the sa'i and makes for the plain of 'Arafat, a vast natural amphitheatre surrounded by hills about 11 kilometres from Mecca. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
20. Before the Saudis banned the use of private cars the journey could amount to ten or more hours of nightmarish struggle between traffic and pedestrians. In recent years the Saudis have tried to alleviate the situation by banning vehicles carrying less than nine passengers, but the confusion is still considerable. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
21. At Muzdalifa - 'the place where one makes oneself agreeable' - the pilgrims collect the small pebbles, 49 in all, to be used in the most complicated and arcane of the Hajj ceremonies, the ritual stoning of the three pillars, or Jamarat, at Mina. The pebbles, each of which is supposed to be the size of a chick-pea, are thrown in sequences of seven at each of the three pillars situated about 300 metres apart along the road between Mina and Mecca, where a huge two-tier walkway has been constructed enabling the people to stone the pillars from either level. The ritual is purely pagan, and there is no reference to it in the Quran. The pilgrims perform it only because, according to the hadifh traditions, the Prophet himself did so during his Farewell Pilgrimage. There is no mention in the canonical texts of the popular belief that the ceremonies involve the 'stoning of Satan'. Nevertheless the belief is held universally throughout the Muslim world, and is said to account for the violence with which many pilgrims attack the pillars. Ali Shariati, the Iranian radical, gives the ceremony an unabashed revolutionary symbolism: These pebbles will be used as your weapons to kill your enemy . . . What does the pebble represent? It represents a bullet ... Each soldier in Ibrahim's army has to shoot seventy bullets at the enemies in Mina. They are to be fired at the head, trunk and heart of the enemy. Only those which hit the enemy will be counted. If you are not an expert select more bullets to compensate for your lack of skill . . . If you hit one less than the recommended number, you are not considered a soldier nor is your Hajj valid . (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
22. At Mina the wastage of meat has up till now been appalling, since most of it has had to be destroyed in lime-pits soon after the killing. Today the Saudi authorities are investing in freezer-plants and other ways of preserving the animal products. The animals are counted in 'sheep-units', rating from one for a sheep or goat up to seven for a fully grown cow or camel. In 1981 about one million 'sheep-units' were sacrificed, seventy per cent of them during the first day of sacrifice, and of these, about half between morning and midday. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
23. The pagan background of all these rites, from the standing a t'Arafat to the Feast of Sacrifice, is still obscure. Muslim authorities are understandably reticent on the subject, while, for obvious reasons, archaeologists are unlikely to be admitted to the area in the foreseeable future. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
24. Some anthropologists have seen in the standing at 'Arafat relics of an ancient rainmaking cult. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
25. The 'ifada front 'Arafat to Muzdalifa, which in pre-Islamic times began before nightfall, may have represented the 'persecution' of the dying sun. The stone-throwing at Mina, according to the earliest Muslim sources, only occurred after the sun had passed the meridian, suggesting a ritual pursuit of the sun-demon, whose harsh rule ends with the summer. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
26. Just as the Quran did not suddenly appear out of nowhere in a strange and incomprehensible language, but was assembled from existing verbal materials, so the central ritual of Islam, the Hajj, was arranged out of existing cultic practices. The actions themselves were almost unchanged, but their meaning was transformed to fit a new, vastly expanded, cosmic vision. The result was a religious and ideological tour de force. By abolishing the intercalary month, Muhammad freed the rituals from their seasonal connections: from now on the Hajj could fall at any time of the year, for the cosmic deity to whom all the rituals were to be addressed was the same God in autumn and spring, summer and winter. Similarly, the sanctuaries associated with particular localities were not abolished, but included within a set of rituals covering the whole area. 'The whole of 'Arafat is a place for standing, the whole of Muzdalifa is a place for stopping, the whole of Mina is a place for sacrifice,' the Prophet is related to have said on the Farewell Pilgrimage. Similar effects were achieved by subtly adjusting the timing of the ancient ceremonies. Ancient taboos associated with the rituals were deliberately violated to demonstrate the impotence of the pagan gods and the inefficacy of the rituals when dedicated to them. But the forms of the rituals were preserved because the Prophet was fully aware of the importance they held for his people. Beyond that, he knew that the rituals formed part of a universal language composed of bodily movements as well as verbal utterances, by means of which human beings express their deepest needs and apprehensions. The remarkable expansion of Islam, especially in the Far East and tropical Africa, long after its initial political and military impetus had exhausted itself, was in no small measure due to the ease with which it absorbed local cults and then directed them towards the broader social and cosmological purpose of the monotheistic vision. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
27. But being constantly exposed to torrents, it was destroyed, and was rebuilt by Qusaiy ibn Kilab, who put a top to it. Up to this time it is said to have been open at the roof. (A Dictionary Of Islam, Thomas Patrick Hughes, 1965, Kaba, p 256)
28. The roof was supported within by six pillars, and the statue of Hubal was placed over a wall then existing within the Ka'bah. This took place during the youth of Muhammad. Al-Azraqi, quoted by Burekhardt, says that-the figure of the Virgin Mary and the infant Jesus was sculptured as a deity upon one of the six pillars nearest the gate. (A Dictionary Of Islam, Thomas Patrick Hughes, 1965, Kaba, p 256)
29. According to the Traditions and the inventive genius of Muslim writers, the Ka'bah was. first constructed in heaven (where a model of it still remains, called the Baitu 'l-Ma'mur) two thousand years before the creation of the world. Adam erected the Ka'bah on earth exactly below the spot its perfect model occupies in heaven, and selected the stones from the five sacred mountains, Sinai, al-Judi, Hire, Olivet, and Lebanon. Ten thousand angels were appointed to guard the structure; but, as Burckhardt remarks, they appear to have been often most remiss in their duty! At the Deluge the Sacred House was destroyed. But the Almighty is said to have instructed Abraham to rebuild it. In its reconstruction Abraham was assisted by his son Ishmael, who with his mother Hagar were at the time residents of Makkah, Abraham having journeyed from Syria in order to obey the commands of God. Upon digging they found the original foundations of the building. But wanting a stone to mark the corner of the building, Ishmael started in search of one, and as he was going in the direction of Jabal Qubais, the angel Gabriel met him, and gave him the famous black stone. Ibn 'Abbas relates that the Prophet said, the black stone when it came down from Paradise was whiter than milk, but that it has become black from the sin of those who have touched it. (MisWf, book Ii. Ch. iv. pt. 2.) (A Dictionary Of Islam, Thomas Patrick Hughes, 1965, Kaba, p 256)
30. The pagan Arabs practiced polytheism. They worshipped nature, stones. angels and demons. Particular reverence was accorded the three 'daughters of God', and various national, local and family idols. Each tribe gave allegiance to a special protector: one god to whom it turned in time of distress. Our modern altars may have had their beginnings in the stone worship of the ancients. One stone still holds a revered spot in the Arab heart. This is the stone that fell from paradise at the fall of Adam. Pure white it was and housed in a temple built by Seth, Adam's son, until a great flood ravaged the land, destroyed the temple, and buried it under the mud and debris. Tradition relates that the stone remained hidden until Abraham sent his wife Hagar into the desert with their infant son Ishmael. One day, weakened by thirst, Hagar laid her baby on the sand to rest. His fitful thrashings uncovered a spring of clear water near the site of the lost relic. It is told that an angel descended from heaven and helped recover the sacred stone and that Ishmael rebuilt the holy house of Seth with the assistance of Abraham and the archangel Gabriel. This, in brief, is the story of the Kaaba,' holiest building in Islam. (Islam and the Arabs, Rom Landau, 1958 p 11-21)
31. It is clear from these and similar Quranic texts that the original pilgrimage rituals were not so much being described to Abraham as alluded to for the benefit of a Meccan audience that was already quite familiar with them.' It was once again left for later commentators to fill in the details, not of the Hajj, to be sure, which was well known to all, but of Abraham and Ishmael's connection with it. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
32. In this passage he describes how Abraham, at God's urging, performed that original pilgrimage ritual. Abu al-Walid related to us ... (from) Uthman ibn Saj: Muhammad ibn Ishaq reported to me: When Abraham the Friend of the Merciful finished building the sacred House, Gabriel came and said: "Circle it seven times!" and he circumambulated it seven times with Ishmael, touching all the corners during each circumambulation. When they had completed seven, he and Ishmael prayed two prostrations behind the stone [maqam]. He said: Gabriel got up with them and showed him all the ritual stations: al-Safa, al-Marwa, Mina, Muzdalifa, and Arafat. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
33. As these accounts attempt to demonstrate, the complex ritual the Muslims call the Hajj or Pilgrimage can be traced back, in general and in each specific detail, to Adam and, more proximately, to Abraham, whose intent and practices Muhammad was to restore so many centuries later. For the non-Muslim, however, the Meccan rituals are striking remnants of a pagan, albeit Semitic, past in Arabia, which the Prophet of Islam permitted to survive by incorporating them into his own prescriptions. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
34. It was the Zamzam, then, or perhaps the two high places called Safa and Marwa, that established the sanctity of the site of Mecca, though how long before Qusayy we cannot say. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
35. As for archeological evidence, it is sparse indeed, particularly from Arabia, where excavation is still in its very early stage and the sparse results are speculative in the extreme. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
36. In a chapter entitled "The Building of the Ka'ba by the Quraysh in the Age of Barbarism," the Meccan historian at-Azi-aqi (d. 834 C.F.) collected some of the traditions still extent on the early appearance of the House before its substantial reconstruction during the early manhood of Muhammad. Some men from quraysh sat in the sanctuary ... and were remembering the building of the Ka'ba and they described how it was before that time. It was built of dried [unmortared] stones and not with clay or mud. Its door was on ground level and it had no roof or ceiling. The curtain (kiswa) was hung on its wall on one side and was tied to the top of the center of the wall. On the right as one entered the Ka'ba there was a pit where gifts of money and goods for the Ka'ba were deposited. In this pit sat a snake to guard it, which God had sent at the time of the (tribe of) jurhum.... The horns of the ram that Abraham had slaughtered (in place of Isaac or Ishmael) were hanging on the wall facing the entrance. The were ornaments hanging in it which had been given as gifts. (Azraqi 1858: 106) Tabari tells a story from Ibn Ishaq that casts a little more light on the earlier building: The, reason for their [the Quraysh's] demolition of the ka'ba (early in the seventh century C.E.) was that at this time it consisted of loose stones rising to somewhat above a man's height, and they wished to make it higher and roof it over since some men, Quraysh and others, had stolen the treasure of the Ka'ba, which was kept in a well in its interior. (Tabai-i, Annals 1.1130 = Tabari vi: 51) By this account the Ka'ba does not appear to be a house at all but rather some kind of enclosure built around a pit or dry well, an enclosure that was, however, draped with a cloth curtain (kiswa) in a manner to give it the appearance of a tent. ... A tent like structure makes more sense, and it has been plausibly suggested that the later cubiform stone building, the ancestor of the one that stands in Mecca today, succeeded a square or quadrangular tent and so was distinguished from the round tents of the inhabitants of the settlement.19 The sequence would not be very different, then, from the Israelite one: the Ark of the desert wanderings continued to be housed in a tent even after its transfer to urban Jerusalem (2 Samuel 6:17); and when it was finally housed in a stone building, that "holy of holies" was likewise a ka'ba, twenty cubits in length and width and height (1 Kings 6:20). (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
37. Nor was Mecca's the only Such building in Arabia. An early Muslim historian of the antiquities, Hisham ibn al-Kalbi, reported the presence of other ka'bas in and around the peninsula: The Banu al-Harith lbn Ka'b had in Najran a ka'ba which they venerated. ... The Iyad had another ka'ba in Sindad, (which is located) in a region between Kufa and Basra (in Iraq). (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
38. We cannot say, then, how typical the obviously crude Meccan structure was. But whether typical or not, its primitive and makeshift architecture comes as no surprise: not only was it situated in a wadi, and so vulnerable to the normal destructive consequences; but the Meccan Ka'ba was also built to serve people who were originally nomads and who had, even by the late sixth century, so little skill at construction that they required the assistance of a foreign carpenter to put a timber roof on the edifice. But for all that, it was a temple and had all the primary characteristics of such: a quadrangular cella oriented to the cardinal compass points, 20 a sacred rock and sacred spring, a characteristic haram with the usual privileges of the right of asylum, and so on. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
39. Although it is true that the primary liturgy connected with the Mecca building, the ritual circumambulation, was performed outside, there is almost no trace, either before or under Islam, of the notion that the interior of the Ka'ba was in any way more sacred than the surrounding Haram. Access to it was controlled, as we shall have many occasions to see, but exclusively, it would appear, on the grounds of political privilege. ...The Ka'ba was not, then, a more sacred haram within the larger Haram that surrounded it. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
40. According to Muslim tradition, this had been a part, though not a structural part, of the building from the beginning, that is to say, from Adam's original construction of the House of God. But the tradition also remembered that the stone had come from Abu Qubays, a mountain overlooking Mecca." The two strands of tradition were harmonized in an account whereby the stone was concealed on Abu Qubays during the era of the Flood, when Adam's original Ka'ba was destroyed, and then restored to Abraham for inclusion in his version of the Ka'ba. But the harmonization was not perfect. Other traditions recollected that the Black Stone, or at least its inclusion in the Ka'ba, was of much more recent origin. Ibn Sa'd says that the Quraysh brought it down from Abu Qubays only four years before Muhammad's first revelation. 21 In another account, from al-Fakihi, it is traced back to the Quraysh's first reconstruction of the building, possibly at the time of Qusayy. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
41. But if, as seems equally likely, the stone was originally one of the portable betyls of the early settlers at Mecca, its incorporation into the structure of the Ka'bal like the depiction of similar stones on the walls of temples at Madain Salih and elsewhere, would signal the decision of nomads to make a fixed settlement." (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
42. It has been suggested, for example, that a low wall, and so the hijr enclosure, once surrounded the Ka'ba on all sides and marked the area within which the idols were worshiped through sacrifice,31 or, more enticingly but less convincingly, that the hatim represents the remains of the apse of a Christian church oriented toward Jerusalem, which, it will be seen, was the direction in which once Muhammad prayed while he was still at Mecca. The word hijr itself means "inviolable" or "taboo," and it occurs once in that sense in the Quran (6:137-139), in reference not to the area near the Ka'ba but to animals and crops earmarked as belonging to the gods, a sense that supports the contention that the hijr, whatever its original extent, may have served as a pen for the animals destined for sacrifice to the idols around the Ka'ba.33 Whether it was so used in Muhammad's own lifetime seems doubtful, however, at least on the evidence of the Muslim authorities. As the hijr is portrayed in Muhammad's day, it was a place of common assembly where political matters were discussed, or people prayed, or, as it appears, slept. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
43. Al-Fakihi then records a tradition traced back to Ibn Abbas stating that there is an inscription on the maqam saying: "This is the House of God, He put it on the quadrangles of His throne, its sustenance will come from this and that, its people will be the first to suspend its sanctity." (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
44. If pilgrims are drawn to it, so too are historians, who see in the source called Zamzam a plausible explanation of why there was a sanctuary in the wadi of Mecca in the first place. In the nineteenth century Julius Wellhausen pronounced the Zamzam "the only spring of Mecca and so likely the origin of the holy place as well as the city," and other authorities have generally been inclined to agree. There are problems, however. Other wells quenched Mecca," as Ibn Ishaq reveals when speaking of the Zamzam. Zamzam utterly eclipsed the other wells from which the pilgrims used to get their water, and the people went to it because it was in the sacred enclosure and because its water was superior to any other; and also because it was the well of Ishmael, son of Abraham. Because of it the Banu Abd Manaf behaved boastfully towards the Quraysh and the other Arabs. (Ibn Ishaq 1955: 65) The Zamzam was not, then, unique; it was simply superior, and the basis of that superiority-leaving aside the debated question of the quality of its water-was that its origin went back to Abrahamic days, when, as we have seen, it was miraculously discovered and saved the life of Ishmael. Zamzam, it was argued, was thus mentioned in the Bible, particularly if one accepted its identification with the miraculous life-saving spring mentioned in Genesis 21:19. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
45. Safa and Marwa ... This is as much as the Quran says. But the Muslim tradition offers two explanations for the practice, one "pagan" and one "Abrahamic." As we have already seen, the latter simply identifies Hagar's frantic search for water for the infant Ishmael with the ritual running between the hills before her providential discovery of the Zamzam. What is obviously an older and more primitive explanation has to do with two humans named Asaf and Na'ila, members of the jurhum: (The Quraysh) adopted Asaf (or Isaf) and Na'ila by the place of Zamzam, sacrificing beside them. They were (originally) a man and a woman of jurhum ... who copulated in the Ka'ba so God transformed them into two stones .... But God alone knows whether this is the truth. (Ibn Ishaq 1955: 37) Despite Ibn Ishaq's explicit misgivings, the colorful story became current in the Muslim authors and has been the point of departure for a wide variety of attempts to explain the reality, if any, behind the story and its connection with the "running" ritual .17 The names, which have to do with stones, appear to be Aramaic rather than Arabic and so have suggested foreign origins. What were transparently sacred stones, or perhaps stone idols-the jurhum story may reflect an etiological myth or be a distant echo of some form of ritual prostitution at the Ka'ba or nearby 48 were originally worshiped atop the "high places" of Safa and Marwa and then brought down somewhere in the vicinity of the Ka'ba by Qusayy himself. The circumambulation ritual continued to be performed at the two hills, but thereafter sacrifices were offered at the new sites of the idols. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
46. The construction of the Ka'ba is described in the Quran as the work of Abraham and Ishmael (2:127), and the circumstantial evidence suggests that this may have been a common belief among the pre-Islamic Quraysh. Yet there is no evidence, Quranic or circumstantial, that such a claim was made by Muhammad or had been accepted by the pagan Quraysh for the various Hajj rituals. Their association with Abraham appears to have occurred well after the Hajj had been embraced as an acceptable and meritorious way for a Muslim to worship God (Quran 2:197; 3:97). Absent the Abrahamic motif, the Hajj of Muhammad's Mecca disintegrates into an obscure series of acts centering not on Mecca but on the mountain called Arafat, eleven miles east of the city The Hajj, it has been maintained, originally had nothing to do with Mecca, as even the Islamic version of the ritual testifies: the climax of the Muslim Hajj was and is the "standing" at Arafat, followed by a procession to Mina and sacrifice there, after which the pilgrim was free to remove the ritual vestments." More, it was common knowledge that not the Quraysh but the Sufa, and later the Tamim, held the religious offices, the so-called "permission" (ijaza), at Arafat and Mina." And not only was Mecca not part of the original Hajj; there may have been no trading in the city in connection with its own rituals. Such, at any rate, one might conclude from the fact that the famous pilgrimage fairs-and Mecca is never numbered among them-are associated with Arafat and Mina and that the Quraysh seem to play no major role in them. 14 Thus the Meccan ritual was at some point joined to the Hajj, probably by Muhammad himself. (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
47. It may well have been Muhammad himself who determined that the Arafat ritual was the "Great Hajj" and the Umra the "Lesser," a distinction nowhere apparent in pre-Islamic times. The distinction between Umra and Hajj is already present in the Quran (2:197), but the latter ritual, which became an obligation for every Muslim, may be a composite of several different cult activities some at Mecca, some at shrines outside the city, woven, whether by Muhammad or by someone earlier, into a single liturgical act. The "running" between Safa and Marwa, for example, originally belonged to neither the Umra nor the Hajj, and some Muslims in fact protested its inclusion in either, objections that were presumably silenced by the revelation of Quran 2:158. There is no evidence that Muhammad substantially altered any of the basic rituals of the Meccan pilgrimages, whereas he did modify the chaotic "overflowing" (ifada) from Arafat and the time of the departure from Muzdalifa for Mina." So we may assume that the donning of special clothing and the entering into a taboo state was practiced in pre-Islamic Mecca as it was elsewhere in the Semitic world. The ritual in the Haram had chiefly to do with a circumambulation of the Ka'ba, which in Islamic days included the "greeting of the Black Stone," a gesture of touching, pressing, or kissing with abundant precedents in pre-Islamic practice, though of a very different import, as we shall see. Outside the Haram, ritual required the devotee to run back and forth, another type of "circumambulation,"" between the two hills of Safa and Marwa, the sites of the well-known idols of Asaf and Na'ila in pre-Islamic days. This latter ritual ended with the offering of sacrifices at Marwa." (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
48. Nor could they circumambulate the House except in the garment of the Hums. If they had no such garments they had to go round naked. If any man or woman felt scruples when they had no Hums garments, then they could go round in their ordinary clothes; but they had to throw them away afterwards so that neither they nor anyone else could make use of them. The Arabs called these clothes "the cast-off " They imposed all these restrictions on the Arabs, who accepted them and halted at Arafat, hastened from it, and circumambulated the House naked. The men at least went naked, while the women laid aside all their clothes except a shift wide open back and front. (Ibn Ishaq 1955: 87-88) (The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994)
49. The pagan Ka'bah, which became the Palladium of Islam, was an unpretentious cube-like (hence the name) building of primitive simplicity, originally roofless, serving as a shelter for a black meteorite which was venerated as a fetish. At the birth of Islam the structure was that rebuilt in 608 probably by an Abyssinian from the wreckage of a Byzantine or Abyssinian ship destroyed on the shore of the Red Sea. (History Of The Arabs, Philip K. Hitti, 1937, p 96-101)
50. Each pilgrim makes the tawaf or ritual circumambulation of the Ka'ba, a ceremony that has changed little, if at all, since pre-Islamic times. He will make seven circuits of the building, in an anti-clockwise movement, during which he will try to kiss, touch or otherwise greet the famous Black Stone which is set in a silver casing in the eastern corner. Muslims are taught that this is a fragment of the original temple, for the Ka'ba is said to have been rebuilt several times, before, during and after the Prophet's lifetime. (Islam in the World, Malise Ruthven, 1984, p 28-48)
51. I intend to put forward some of the evidence which has led me to think that the way in which the question is usually answered, both in the traditional Muslim literature and in works of modern scholarship, produces an inadequate account of the origins and development of the Muslim sanctuary, and I wish to propose the outlines of an alternative way of envisaging the islamization of the Meccan sanctuary. ... The process of islamization is not seen to involve any radical changes in the organization of the sanctuary, nor in the ceremonies associated with it. ... the Muslim sanctuary at Mecca continues to be seen as basically a continuation of the sanctuary of pagan times in the same place, and the islamization of that sanctuary continues to be associated with the prophetic career of Muhammad. (Studies On The First Century Of Islamic Society, Editor G.H.A. Juynboll, Chapter 2: The Origins of the Muslim Sanctuary at Mecca, G.R. Hawting, p23-48)
52. The evidence which I wish to concentrate upon in this paper, and which I think is difficult to reconcile with the generally accepted version of the islamization of the Meccan sanctuary, is provided by the use in the Muslim literature of certain terms or names which are connected with the sanctuary at Mecca. ... These names or terms, it must be emphasized, are now applied to some of the most important features of the Muslim sanctuary at Mecca, but the evidence seems to show that they originated independently of that sanctuary and only later came to be used to designate features of it. (Studies On The First Century Of Islamic Society, Editor G.H.A. Juynboll, Chapter 2: The Origins of the Muslim Sanctuary at Mecca, G.R. Hawting, p23-48)
53. Snouck Hurgronje's argument, which has become one of the most widely accepted ideas of modern scholarship on the beginnings of Islam, was that the adoption of the Meccan sanctuary by Muhammad has to be seen as a reaction to the rejection of him by the Jews of Medina. Only in the face of this, rejection, according to Snouck Hurgronje, did Muhammad move towards the arabization of his religion, a move in which the adoption of the Meccan sanctuary was an important step. And only at this time did Muhammad begin to formulate the doctrine that the Meccan sanctuary had been founded by Abraham, an idea which grew out of his contact with the Jews of Medina. (Studies On The First Century Of Islamic Society, Editor G.H.A. Juynboll, Chapter 2: The Origins of the Muslim Sanctuary at Mecca, G.R. Hawting, p23-48)
54. It seems that the Muslim sanctuary at Mecca is the result of a sort of compromise between a pre-existing pagan sanctuary and sanctuary ideas which had developed first in a Jewish milieu. ... At a certain stage in the development of the new religion the need arose to assert its independence, and one of the most obvious ways in which this could be done was by establishing a specifically Muslim sanctuary. (Studies On The First Century Of Islamic Society, Editor G.H.A. Juynboll, Chapter 2: The Origins of the Muslim Sanctuary at Mecca, G.R. Hawting, p23-48)
55. The Ka'ba itself is frequently said to have been demolished and rebuilt.7 The Black Stone is on a number of occasions removed from the Ka'ba and then restored to its place.8 The stone called Maqam Ibrahim is moved around by floods and by human actions.9 The well of Zamzam is "discovered" on two separate occasions.10 Al-Masjid al-Varam, explained as the mosque containing the Ka'ba at Mecca, is several times rebuilt and enlarged. (Studies On The First Century Of Islamic Society, Editor G.H.A. Juynboll, Chapter 2: The Origins of the Muslim Sanctuary at Mecca, G.R. Hawting, p23-48)
56. even Muslim tradition recognized that the history of the sanctuary and its incorporation by Islam could not be presented as a simple, straightforward development. ... Furthermore, the traditional material on the history of the sanctuary is hardly of a sort to inspire confidence in it as a record of historical events. Sometimes we find the same basic material being made to refer to two allegedly separate events (Studies On The First Century Of Islamic Society, Editor G.H.A. Juynboll, Chapter 2: The Origins of the Muslim Sanctuary at Mecca, G.R. Hawting, p23-48)

The second part of this member of Islam's statement has already been debunked in answers to SELF-DECEPTION PART 2, so refer back to that.

SELF-DECEPTION PART 4:

One member of Islam said, <<"This is the exactly how trouble began with the Jews. Because God promissed the land to Abraham and his decendants, the Jews became jealous and rebellious and wanted to claim the land all for themselves without giving any share to Ishmael's descendants. (They still don't want to share it with anyone.)

The trouble began in the next chapter with the realization that Abraham had as yet no children with which to fulfill the covenant!!! Before the covenent was made, Abraham had only one wife (Sarah). Both Abraham and Sarah were in old age (around 90) and therefore chances of producing a child now were very low.

"Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her." ( Genesis 16:1-2) Abram agreed and did what Sarai said.

So Sarah got Hagar married to Abraham, perhaps she could bear Abraham a son, and indeed she did bore him a son. He was called Ishmael and was therefore half Hebrew and half Egyptian (Abraham was Hebrew [i.e. not a Jew but more of an Arab] and Hagar was Egyptian [again not a Jewess]). When Hagar became pregnant, Sarah realised what was about to happen, that the son of Hagar would be the inheritor of Abraham, so she began to mock and abuse Hagar. This is when God sends an angel to Hagar with the message:

"You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the LORD has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." (Gen. 16:11)

Please note the context of the verse you just read and tell me how the words "he will be a wild donkey of a man" fit in this verse? God wants to heal the wounds of Hagar because she was being mocked and teased and he sends a message to calm her and give her hope and good news. Does it make sense therefore that God begins to say words like "He will be a wild donkey of a man" while trying to heal her wounds?? No it doesn't. It only makes sense that later on when the Jews realised the truth, they editted the books of moses and tried to make Ishmael (the first born of Abraham) look really bad.
(compare with this verse from the Holy Qur'an: Then woe to those who write the Scripture with their own hands and then say: "This is from Allah", to traffic with it for a miserable price. Woe to them for what their hands do write and for the gain they make thereby" [Holy Qur'an 2:75])


Now Isaac was born when Ishmael was 13 years old. When Isaac was around two years old, Sarah saw that Ishmael was mocking with him. So she got angry and became jealous of him and told Abraham to send Ishmael and Hagar away from here. So Hagar and Ishmael were forced to flees into the desert where she finds refuge beside a spring of water (called ZamZam water in Arabic):

The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac." [Genesis 21:8-10]

"... she [Sarah] said unto Abraham: 'Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac...' And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba." (Genesis 21:9,10,14) (very sad)


So there was always jelousy on the parts of Jews and descendants of Isaac. Those verses speak about covenant being made to Abraham and his decendants and not to the Jews or Isaac alone. Don't get me wrong. We Muslims do not say that Isaac was not blessed. We say that he too was blessed and we believe him as one the most righteous prophets of God. We just don't like the fact that the Jews and Christians exclude Ishmael and his descendants from the covenents when in fact God Himself has mentioned in many verses in the Bible that he will make Ishmael a "great nation":">>

Now most of this has already been debunked in the answers to SELF-DECEPTION PART 2, so refer back to that.

Also, Numbers 34:1-29 makes clear that the everlasting covenant and land grant was CLEARLY ONLY WITH ISRAEL THE DESCENDENTS OF ISAAC AS FOLLOWS, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land of Canaan; (this is the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan with the coasts thereof:) 3 Then your south quarter shall be from the wilderness of Zin along by the coast of Edom, and your south border shall be the outmost coast of the salt sea eastward: 4 And your border shall turn from the south to the ascent of Akrabbim, and pass on to Zin: and the going forth thereof shall be from the south to Kadeshbarnea, and shall go on to Hazaraddar, and pass on to Azmon: 5 And the border shall fetch a compass from Azmon unto the river of Egypt, and the goings out of it shall be at the sea. 6 And as for the western border, ye shall even have the great sea for a border: this shall be your west border. 7 And this shall be your north border: from the great sea ye shall point out for you mount Hor: 8 From mount Hor ye shall point out your border unto the entrance of Hamath; and the goings forth of the border shall be to Zedad: 9 And the border shall go on to Ziphron, and the goings out of it shall be at Hazarenan: this shall be your north border. 10 And ye shall point out your east border from Hazarenan to Shepham: 11 And the coast shall go down from Shepham to Riblah, on the east side of Ain; and the border shall descend, and shall reach unto the side of the sea of Chinnereth eastward: 12 And the border shall go down to Jordan, and the goings out of it shall be at the salt sea: this shall be your land with the coasts thereof round about. 13 And Moses commanded the children of Israel, saying, This is the land which ye shall inherit by lot, which the LORD commanded to give unto the nine tribes, and to the half tribe: 14 For the tribe of the children of Reuben according to the house of their fathers, and the tribe of the children of Gad according to the house of their fathers, have received their inheritance; and half the tribe of Manasseh have received their inheritance: 15 The two tribes and the half tribe have received their inheritance on this side Jordan near Jericho eastward, toward the sunrising. 16 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 17 These are the names of the men which shall divide the land unto you: Eleazar the priest, and Joshua the son of Nun. 18 And ye shall take one prince of every tribe, to divide the land by inheritance. 19 And the names of the men are these: Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh. 20 And of the tribe of the children of Simeon, Shemuel the son of Ammihud. 21 Of the tribe of Benjamin, Elidad the son of Chislon. 22 And the prince of the tribe of the children of Dan, Bukki the son of Jogli. 23 The prince of the children of Joseph, for the tribe of the children of Manasseh, Hanniel the son of Ephod. 24 And the prince of the tribe of the children of Ephraim, Kemuel the son of Shiphtan. 25 And the prince of the tribe of the children of Zebulun, Elizaphan the son of Parnach. 26 And the prince of the tribe of the children of Issachar, Paltiel the son of Azzan. 27 And the prince of the tribe of the children of Asher, Ahihud the son of Shelomi. 28 And the prince of the tribe of the children of Naphtali, Pedahel the son of Ammihud. 29 These are they whom the LORD commanded to divide the inheritance unto the children of Israel in the land of Canaan." (AV). So it is easy to see that their claims are just delusional and have no basis in fact, reality, the truth.

CONCLUSION:

Thus as can clearly be seen, The first granting of title occurred around 1,500 B.C. when the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael gave land title to the ancient Hebrews, nation of Israel, to perpetuity in an everlasting covenant. Before that no one had title, but only possession of land; to wit, that was the beginning of land titlement. And this was by the highest possible authority of all, the creator of all there is, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, the highest authority in the universe so his absolute right to grant title to whom he pleased is of course beyond challenge.

So why the argument over whom Palestine rightfully belongs today? Because many Ishmaelites, the greedy ones, want to destroy world peace and tranquility due to their greed for land that is NOT theirs. The Ishmaelites control over 98 percent of the middle east, and some are so greedy they do not want their brother tribe, the Hebrews, even to have the less than two (2) percent of the land that the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael gave to them in perpetuity. This is the crux of the problem - GREED.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89
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Old 10-03-2006, 05:30 AM
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If you didn't make your posts novel-length you might get more response. Try making a point, allowing someone to respond, and work in the novel (or long pastes) gradually. That way we can see if you can think as well as parrot your sources.
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Old 10-03-2006, 05:41 PM
iris89 iris89 is offline
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Hi Mister Agenda

FIRST, I am a Bible and Religious researcher, I dig out the facts, and I present the facts in an honest way. My writings are research products and of necessity are a little long as they contain extensive backup; whereas, the post of most are opinions and require little space.

SECOND, As I said elsewhere on another topic,
[quote]When reading many post I unfortunately sense some hate on some poster’s parts. This is NOT good as Jesus (Yeshua), the Isa, clearly said at Matthew 22:37-40, “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Authorized King James Bible; AV).

In fact, some even get hate of individual mixed up with showing love by exposing false doctrines, and wrong practices with a view to assisting all in dropping false doctrines, and replacing wrong practices with good practices.

My latest article clearly showed how one religion used the proverbial sword to force conversion to a false religion literally at sword point which is both an unloving and wicked practice at the same time. To read my latest article, go to:

Islam, Violent From The Beginning Using India as An Example: at
http://www.frostcloud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9438

Also, my articles are not ones of hate, but ones that expose false doctrine and wrong practice. If you will read them instead of posting false accusations, you will find not one word of hate in them. They are posted to assist all in knowing the truth, per John 8:32, and to assist all in making a change in their lives by getting out of groups and/or religions that practice false doctrine and wrong practices.

You need to learn about love and that includes warning others with respect false doctrine and wrong practices instead of thinking of hate such as those examples you mentioned,
Quote:
Love is patient and is kind, love does not envy. Love does not brag, is not proud, does not behave itself inappropriately, does not seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil. does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things... I Corinthians 13

Love is the power of faith. Faith needs love to be made perfect, because perfect faith results in faithfullness and faithfullness is a work of love. Faith and love go hand in hand because faith wants to believe, just as love trusts, faith sees through the darkness and weathers the storm, just as love endures all things, and faith seeks to put God first just as love always gives. 1 Corinthians 13 :4-7 Our faith is not just knowledge about God but a personal relationship with Him as Lord, and any relationship requires love to succeed, to endure trials and to grow, including our relationships with one another because we are called to be family in the Lord and to love one another. The perfect example of faith powered by love is seen in the life of Jesus Christ, who manifests Gods love ...
Because love is the power of faith we should focus on love, seize it and cultivate it... and we can because God is love, and He imparts that love to us when we draw near to Him as the scripture says... whatever touches what is holy shall become holy Leviticus 6:27, and love is of the Holy Spirit. By faith we draw near to God through sincere prayer, entering into His presence, because when Jesus died on the cross, the temple curtain separating God and man was torn in two from top to bottom... Mathew 27:51 Gods promise says that if we draw near to Him then He will draw near to us, James 4:8 and when He who is Holy draws near to us then our spirits are sanctified by His Holy Spirit as His holiness is imparted to our spirits. If we allow God to fill our hearts with His Holy Spirit then we are filled with the love of God because love is the pre-eminate characteristic of God's holiness. Because God is the source of our love, love is the fruit of faith... Galatians 5: 22
When we submit to the love of God we have combined faith with love and have the power to fulfill the royal law, which is to love the Lord with all our heart, mind and soul... Mathew 22:37-39 If we keep the royal law James 2:8 we are being faithful and are perfecting faith by faithfullness... James 2:22 If we love God we will seek to please Him and keep the royal law because the royal law embraces Gods will and all of His commandments. Without love we can't fulfill the royal law because we can't love the Lord unless we have love. To manifest the love of God is to overcome sin, whereas to not manifest the love of God is to sin. For the royal law is not to know about the Lord, but to love the Lord... and to love one another as ourselves. We can't do one without the other, because we can't truly love God whom we can't see if we don't love mankind who is made in the image of God. When we love one another we are manifesting our love for God whom we can't see by loving His image. If we love one another then we also love God because we can't love the reflection without loving its source. And if we love God we will love Jesus Christ and allow Him to reign in our hearts, keepings all of His commandments John 14:21 by subduing the will and power of the flesh through the power of the Holy Spirit, so that faith working through love does the will of God by turning the thought into reality which pleases Him and fulfills the royal law...
Faith without love is incomplete, residing only in the mind as knowledge, and knowledge of Gods will alone can not perfect us by saving us from sin but allowing Jesus Christ to reign in our hearts. If knowledge of Gods will alone could save us then salvation would have been through the law of Moses or even a Christian law handed down by Jesus, and there would not have been any need for Christ to die for our sins Galatians 2:21 and dwell in our hearts. If Jesus reigns in our hearts then the love of Christ also reigns because He is the manifestation of Gods love. The heart without the love of God does not have Jesus Christ and the soul without the Spirit of Christ is not born again Romans 8:9 and cannot be perfected by being transformed into the likeness of Jesus Christ which is true salvation and the result of faith. But the soul which manifests the love of God has been washed clean by the Holy Spirit Romans 15:16 and manifests the spirit and glory of Jesus Christ... "[source - Simon Strahler]
Your friend in Christ Iris89
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Old 10-05-2006, 03:32 PM
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Iris

You quote the bible which I refute as a book written by people. GOD did not write this book.

Regarding your religion, do you use the cross or crucifix as a symbol of your religion?

I asked leouna that question and got no answer.

See my post on the 'Counter Crusade'.

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Old 10-05-2006, 08:04 PM
iris89 iris89 is offline
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hi new Science

You are obviously unaware of the fact that the Bible is NOT the product of one committee or strongman. It has over 40 individual writers who wrote under divine inspiration/guidance putting the thoughts of God (YHWH) into the words of men much as transcribing secretaries today taking transcription and then later typing it out. In other words one real author, God (YHWH), and many scribes each of whom wrote in his own style over a period of approximately 1,600 years. All of what people call or consider inconsistencies are really not such, but most often just a problem of translation and/or understanding, i.e., lack of understanding of what the original writer writing in his own language and culture meant/said in his original writing. What is remarkable, is the writers over such a period of time all wrote in harmony when even most posters on threads on this forum can not even stay on track or subject over a period of a few days and/or weeks at most with the original subject of the thread. This fact of harmony over a period so great as to almost stagger the imagination shows that it had one guiding force or author who divinely inspired its writers as humans of their own volition can not keep on track over short periods of time.


To wit, the Bible is the ONLY book God (YHWH) ever inspired men to write as his scribes. In other words, God is its author and men only put his thoughts given to them by divine inspiration into their own words, the words of men. Not only that, all the other writers of later so called religious guidance books borrowed from it and made changes in accord with their strong man or so called prophet. Take the example of Joseph Smith who borrowed from it to write the Book of Mormon, but failed to give credit or source to the Bible and twisted some borrowed things into bizarre distortions. Other examples are of course the bizarre writings of David Koresh the Prophet of the Branch Dividians of Waco, Texas; and the Quran, etc.

With respect the pagan symbol of the cross, here are the facts.
Discourse on the Mystery of the Cross:

Many believe that Jesus died on a cross, but let’s consider whether this is so or not. First let’s look at the Koine Greek word that many English translators translate as cross as given in Strong's Concordance with
Hebrew and Greek Lexicon shows, with the word commonly translated cross #4716.

4716 staurov stauros stow-ros’

from the base of 2476; TDNT-7:572,1071; n m

AV-cross 28; 28

1) a cross
1a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves
1b) the crucifixion which Christ underwent 2 an upright "stake", esp. a pointed one, used as such in fences or palisades

4716. staurov stauros stow-ros’; from the base of 2476; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specifically) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:—cross.

As can be seen, there is a translation problem here as the Koine Greek word staurov stauros stow-ros’ actually means an upright “stake.” But for a clearer understanding let’s look at what scholars in this area have to say instead of leaning on our own understanding and/or preconceived concepts.

Hislop and Wilkinson have the following also: "Now, this Pagan symbol seems first to have crept into the Christian Church in Egypt, and generally into Africa. A statement of Tertullian, about the middle of the third century, shows how much, by that time, the Church of Carthage was infected with the old leaven. Egypt especially, which was never thoroughly evangelised, appears to have taken the lead in bringing in this Pagan symbol. The first form of that which is called the Christian Cross, found on Christian monuments there, is the unequivocal Pagan Tau, or Egyptian "Sign of life." Let the reader peruse the following statement of Sir G. Wilkinson: "A still more curious fact may be mentioned respecting this hieroglyphical character [the Tau], that the early Christians of Egypt adopted it in lieu of the cross, which was afterwards substituted for it, prefixing it to inscriptions in the same manner as the cross in later times. For, though Dr. Young had some scruples in believing the statement of Sir A. Edmonstone, that it holds that position in the sepulchres of the great Oasis, I can attest that such is the case, and that numerous inscriptions, headed by the Tau, are preserved to the present day on early Christian monuments." The drift of this statement is evidently this, that in Egypt the earliest form of that which has since been called the cross, was no other than the "Crux Ansata," or "Sign of life," borne by Osiris and all the Egyptian gods; that the ansa or "handle" was afterwards dispensed with, and that it became the simple Tau, or ordinary cross, as it appears at this day, and that the design of its first employment on the sepulchres, therefore, could have no reference to the crucifixion of the Nazarene, but was simply the result of the attachment to old and long-cherished Pagan symbols, which is always strong in those who, with the adoption of the Christian name and profession, are still, to a large extent, Pagan in heart and feeling. This, and this only, is the origin of the worship of the "cross." " [The Two Babylon’s, by Reverend Alexander Hilsop]

The Cross and Crucifixion.
This Is Appendix 162 From The Companion Bible.
In the Greek New Testament two words are used for "the cross" on which the Lord was put to death.
1. The word stauros; which denotes an upright pole or stake, to which the crimminals were nailed for execution.
2. The xulon, which generally denotes a piece of a dead log of wood, or timber, for fuel or for any other purpose. Is is not like dendron, which is used of a living, or green tree, as in Matthew 21:8; Revelation 7:1, 3; 8:7; 9:4, etc.
As this latter word xulon is used for the former stauros, it shows us that the meaning of each is exactly the same.
The verb stauroõ means to drive stakes.1
Our English word "cross" is the translation of the Latin crux; but the Greek stauros no more means a crux than the word "stick" means a "crutch".
Homer uses the word stauros of an ordinary pole or stake, or a single piece of timber.2 And this is the meaning and usage of the word throughout the Greek classics.3
It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone. Hence the use of the word xulon (No. 2, above) in connection with the manner of our Lord's death, and rendered "tree" in Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29. Galatians 3:13. 1 Peter 2:24. This is preserved in our old English name rood, or rod. See the Encycl. Brit., 11th (Camb.) ed., volume 7, page 505d.
There is nothing in the Greek of the New Testament even to imply two pieces of timber.
The letter chi, , the initial of the word Christ , was originally used for His Name; or . This was superseded by symbols and , and even the first of these had four equal arms.
These crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian sun-god, , and are first seen on a coin of Julius Cæsar, 100 - 44 B.C., and then on a coin struck by Cæsar's heir (Augustus), 20 B.C.4
On the coins of Constantine the most frequent symbol is ; but the same symbol is used without the surrounding circle, and with the four equal arms vertical and horizontal; and this was the symbol specially venerated as the "Solar Wheel". It should be stated that Constantine was a sun-god worshipper, and would not enter the "Church" till some quarter of a century after the legend of his having seen such a cross in the heavens (EUSEBIUS, Vit. Const. I. 37).
The evidence is the same as to the pre-Christian (phallic) symbol in Asia, Africa, and Egypt, whether we consult Nineveh by Sir A. H. LAYARD (ii 213), or Manners and Customs of the Ancient Egyptians, by Sir J. GARDNER WILKINSON, iii. pages 24, 26, 43, 44, 46, 52, 82, 136.
Dr. SCHLIEMANN gives the same evidence in his Ilios (1880), recording his discoveries on the site of prehistoric Troy. See pages 337, 350, 353, 521, 523.
Dr. MAX OHNEFALSCH - RICHTER gives the same evidence from Cyprus; and these are "the oldest extant Phoenician inscriptions"; see his Kypros, the Bible, and Homer : Oriental Civilisation, Art, and Religion in Ancient Times, Plates XIX, XXV, XXVI, XXX, XXXI, XXXII, XL, LVIII, LXIX, etc.
The Catacombs in Rome bear the same testimony : "Christ" is never represented there as "hanging on a cross", and the cross itself is only pourtrayed in a veiled and hesitating manner. In the Egyptian churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life, borrowed by the Christians, and interpreted in the pagan manner. See the Encycl. Brit., 11th (Camb.) ed., volume 14, page 273.
In his Letter from Rome Dean Burgon says : "I question whether a cross occurs on any Christian monument of the first four centuries".
In Mrs. Jameson's famous History of our Lord as Exemplified in Works of Art, she says (volume ii, page 315) : "It must be owned that ancient objects of art, as far as hitherto known, afford no corroboration of the use of the cross in the simple transverse form familiar to us, at any period preceding, or even closely succeeding, the time of Chrysostom"; and Chrysostom wrote half a century after Constantine!
"The Invention of the Cross" by Helena the mother of Constantine (in 326), though it means her finding of the cross, may or may not be true; but the "invention" of it in pre-Christian times, and the "invention" of its use in later times, are truths of which we need to be reminded in the present day. The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two piece of timber placed at any angle.
NOTES
1 There are two compounds of it used : sustauroo - to put any one thus to death with another (Matthew 27:44. Mark 15:32. John 19:32. Romans 6:6. Galatians 2:20); and anastauroo - to rise up and fix upon the stake again (Hebrews 6:6). Another word used is equally significant : prospegnumi - to fix or fasten anything (Acts 2:23).
2 Iliad xxiv. 453. Odyssey xiv. 11.
3 For example, Thucydides iv. 90. Xenophon, Anabasis v. 2. 21.
4 Other coins with this symbol were struck by Augustus, also by Hadrian and other Roman emperors. See Early Christian Numismatics, by C. W. King, M.A.
[http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app162.html]

"THE sign of the cross has been a symbol of great antiquity, present in nearly every known culture. Its meaning has eluded anthropologists, though its use in funerary art could well point to a defense against evil. On the other hand, the famous crux ansata of Egypt, depicted coming from the mouth, must refer to life or breath. The universal use of the sign of the cross makes more poignant the striking lack of crosses in early Christian remains, especially any specific reference to the event on Golgotha. Most scholars now agree that the cross, as an artistic reference to the passion event, cannot be found prior to the time of Constantine." [Ante Pacem—Archaeological Evidence of Church Life Before Constantine (1985), by Professor Graydon F. Snyder, page 27]

The Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M'Clintock and Strong, comments:
'Much time and trouble have been wasted in disputing as to whether three or four nails were used in fastening the Lord. Nonnus affirms that three only were used, in which he is followed by Gregory Nazianzen. The more general belief gives four nails, an opinion which is supported at much length and by curious arguments by Curtius. Others have carried the number of nails as high as fourteen.'- [The Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M'Clintock and Strong, Volume II, page 580]

"It is strange, yet unquestionably a fact, that in ages long before the birth of Christ, and since then in lands untouched by the teaching of the Church, the Cross has been used as a sacred symbol. . . . The Greek Bacchus, the Tyrian Tammuz, the Chaldean Bel, and the Norse Odin, were all symbolized to their votaries by a cruciform device." [The Cross in Ritual, Architecture, and Art (London, 1900), G. S. Tyack, p. 1. ]

"The shape of the [two-beamed cross] had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ." [n Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962), W. E. Vine, p. 256.]

I believe the ANK may have been a form of cross, from the Egyption period. I would need to do some research to back this up, this is just a knee-jerk response to this post. Paul --- Mark McFall <markmcfall@jps.net> wrote: > Heinz (quoting 21st Century NT appendix) > > Christians are sometimes disturbed to learn that > the cross, > > considered for centuries as a Christian symbol, > had its origin long > > before Christ and was actually used in pagan > mythology.It was the > > symbol of the god Tammuz, and Bacchus, and the > Egyptian Osiris. > > Mac: Hey Heinz, I've read and heard similar comments > before. However, in > regards to Osiris, I have never come across > something that suggests that > the ancient Egyptians identified a cross with > Osiris. I've read quite a > bit from _The Book of the Dead_ and other primary > Egyptian texts (by > means of translations of course), but I haven't > found anything that > would hint at that beyond what I read from lazy > scholars like Feke and > Gandy. [Heinz Schmidt, Bible Scholar]

The concept of a cross as an item of veneration is admittedly pagan, “At successive periods this was modified, becoming curved at the extremities, or adding to them more complex lines or ornamental points, which latter also meet at the central intersection. The swastika is a sacred sign in India, and is very ancient and widespread throughout the East. It has a solemn meaning among both Brahmins and Buddhists, though the elder Burnouf ("Le lotus de la bonne loi, traduit du sanscrit", p. 625; Journ. Asiatic Soc. of Great Britain, VI, 454) believes it more common among the latter than among the former. It seems to have represented the apparatus used at one time by the fathers of the human race in kindling fire; and for this reason it was the symbol of living flame, of sacred fire, whose mother is Maia, the personification of productive power (Burnouf, La science des religions). It is also, according to Milani, a symbol of the sun (Bertrand, La religion des Gaulois, p. 159), and seems to denote its daily rotation. Others have seen in it the mystic representation of lightning or of the god of the tempest, and even the emblem of the Aryan pantheon and the primitive Aryan civilization. Emile Burnouf (op. cit., p. 625), taking the Sanskrit word literally, divided it into the particles su-asti-ka, equivalents of the Greek eu-estike. In this way, especially through the adverbial particle, it would mean "sign of benediction", or "of good omen" (svasti), also "of health" or "life". The particle ka seems to have been used in a causative sense (Burnouf, Dictionnaire sanscrit-français, 1866). The swastika sign was very widespread throughout the Orient, the seat of the oldest civilizations. The Buddhist inscriptions carved in certain caves of Western India are usually preceded or closed by this sacred sign (Thomas Edward, "The Indian Swastika", 1880; Philip Greg, "On the Meaning and Origin of the Fylfot and Swastika"). The celebrated excavations of Schliemann at Hissarlik on the site of ancient Troy brought to light numerous examples of the swastika: on spindle-racks, on a cube, sometimes attached to an animal, and even cut upon the womb of a female idol, a detail also noticeable on a small statue of the goddess Athis. The swastika sign is seen on Hittite monuments, e.g. on a cylinder ("The monuments of the Hittites" in "Transactions of the Soc. of Bibl. Archæology", VII, 2, p. 259. For its presence on Galatian and Bithynian monuments, see Guillaume and Perrot, "Exploration archéologique de la Galatie et de la Bithynie", Atlas, Pl. IX). We find it also on the coins of Lycia and of Gaza in Palestine. In the Island of Cyprus it is found on earthenware vessels. It originally represents, as again at Athens and Mycenæ, a flying bird. In Greece we have specimens of it on urns and vases of Botia, on an Attic vase representing a Gorgon, on coins of Corinth (Raoul-Rochette, "Mém. de l'acad. des inscr.", XVI, pt. II, 302 sqq.; "Hercule assyrien", 377-380; Minervini in "Bull. arch. Napolit.", Ser. 2, II, 178-179), and in the treasury of Orchomenus. It seems to have been unknown in Assyria, in Phnicia, and in Egypt. In the West it is most frequently found in Etruria. It appears on a cinerary urn of Chiusi, and on the fibula found in the famous Etruscan tomb at Cere (Grifi, Mon. di Cere, Pl. VI, no. 1). There are many such emblems on the urns found at Capanna di Corneto, Bolsena, and Vetulonia; also in a Samnite tomb at Capua, where it appears in the centre of the tunic of the person there depicted (Minervini, Bull. arch. Napolit., ser. 2, Pl. II, 178-179) This sign is also found in Pompeian mosaics, on Italo-Grecian vases, on coins of Syracuse in Sicily (Raoul-Rochette, "Mém. de l'acad. des inscr." Pl. XVI, pt. II, 302 sqq.; Minervini, "Bull. arch. Nap.", ser. 2, Pl. II, p. 178-179); finally among the ancient Germans, on a rock-carving in Sweden, on a few Celtic stones in Scotland, and on a Celtic stone discovered in the County of Norfolk, England, and now in the British Museum. The swastika, appears in an epitaph on a pagan tombstone of Tebessa in Roman Africa (Annuaire de la Société de Constantine, 1858-59, 205, 87), on a mosaic of the ignispicium (Ennio Quirino Visconti, Opere varie, ed. Milan, I, 141, sqq.), and in a Greek votive inscription at Porto. In the last monument the swastika is imperfect in form, and resembles a Phnician letter. We shall explain below the value and symbolical meaning of this crux gammata when found on Christian monuments. But the swastika is not the only sign of this kind known to antiquity. Cruciform objects have been found in Assyria. The statutes of Kings Asurnazirpal and Sansirauman, now in the British Museum, have cruciform jewels about the neck (Layard, Monuments of Nineveh, II, pl. IV). Cruciform earrings were found by Father Delattre in Punic tombs at Carthage. [The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume IV, Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York]

The Scriptures, by the Institute for Scripture Research, also uses the term "impale" (it also uses "stake"), but the 21st Century NT ignores the term. The Jewish NT has "execute him on a stake." The term "impale" may not be the best rendering here for an English reader, but it can have the meaning other than something being thrust thru. Consider Esther 9:13: "have the bodies of Haman's ten sons hung from the gallows." GNB However, the New Jewish Publication Society has: "let Haman's ten sons be impaled on the stake." [comments by Bible scholars and the New Jewish Publication Society]

A Comprehensive Dictionary of the Original Greek Words with their Precise Meanings for English Readers states: "STAUROS . . . denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution." [A Comprehensive Dictionary of the Original Greek Words with their Precise Meanings for English Readers]

Similarly, the book The Non-Christian Cross observes:
"There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros [pole or stake]; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross." [The Non-Christian Cross]

Paul Wilhelm Schmidt, who was a professor at the University of Basel, in his work Die
Geschichte Jesu made a detailed study of the Greek word stau·ros'. On p. 386 of his work he said: "staurV [stau·ros'] means every upright standing pale or tree trunk." [Die Geschichte Jesu (The History of Jesus), Vol. 2, Tübingen and Leipzig, 1904, pp. 386-394]



Was Jesus nailed to the cross or tied with ropes? For many years, some Christian scholars denied that Jesus had been nailed to the cross for they claimed that no evidence could be found in the ancient sources that showed that crucified victims were nailed. They held to this belief, even though the New Testament makes it clear that Jesus was nailed (Luke 24:39; John 20:20, 24-29). Since that time, many examples of nailing have been found in the ancient sources. In addition to this, an archeological breakthrough occurred in June, 1968. For the first time ever, the remains of a crucified man were found in an ancient burial chamber in the northern portion of Jerusalem. The remains were from the time of Jesus, the first century A.D. The name of the crucified man was scratched onto the ossuary. His name was Jehohanan ben Hagqol. The nail driven through his feet was still in place in the feet. It was about 7 inches long and made of iron. Chemical examination of this nail revealed that the cross which the nail had been driven into had been made out of olive wood. Further evidence revealed that the nails had been driven, not through his palms, but through his wrists, between the radius and cubitus. The ancients considered the wrist to be part of the hand. This great archeological find clearly demonstrated once and for all that nails were used in crucifixion. [Hengel, Martin. Crucifixion: In the Ancient World and the Folly of the Message of the Cross. Translated by John Bowden. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1977.]

Others show the “cross” as its commonly assumed form, but how reliable? “On 8 April 2000 the Daily Telegraph ran the first part of an extract from C.P. Thiede and Matthew d’Ancona’s The Quest for the True Cross. This fragment is in the Church of Santa Croce in Gerusalemme [“Holy Cross in Jerusalem”], Rome, an intriguing clue indeed! The ‘Titulus Crucis’, as its known, was discovered in 1492 behind a 5th century mosaic being restored. This depicted “the legendary discovery of the True Cross in Jerusalem by the Empress Helena”, mother of Emperor Constantine the Great, in 326 AD. In The Son of God / The Sun God I discussed the Holy Cross “vision” that led to Constantine’s conversion. [See also Pillars of Fire, Holy Crosses and Flying Wheels ]. Now there’s a more substantial reason for it... . D’Ancona says that, in 1998, when he and his co-author first saw the piece, it was with other relics. “in a small room...now known as the Chapel of St Helena, where the Fourth Century stonework of the Empress’s palace can still be seen.”
Today it is kept “under lock and key in a sequestered side-chapel” of Santa Croce under close scrutiny. Why? The article suggests that it’s more than just the Church’s unease over the on-going controversy surrounding the Turin Shroud, particularly regarding its authenticity. In 1988 , [http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/jj_tcgt.htm]

"The Greek term signifies an upright stake on which criminal were executed, with no suggestion of a cross-beam. In the Latin versions the term 'crux' was used, but according to Livy of the 1st century B.C., the word meant no more than an upright stake; it was only later that crux came to mean a cross. Josephus relates how 2,000 were crucified at one time ('Antiquities' book 17; 10:10) hardly practicable if crosses had to be made for each one. There are Greek words which denote a cross, but none of these appear in the in any of the four gospel accounts of Jesus' execution. At Galatians 3:13 Paul refers to the instrument as 'a timber' (A.V. a tree) a reference to the upright stake on which bodies of criminals were hanged under the Mosaic Law (Deut 21:22), and which Jesus fulfilled by his death.

Although (A.E. Knoch) uses "cross" in the text of the Concordant Literal Version, in the
Keyword Concordance under "cross" he says, "an upright stake or pale, without any crosspiece, now, popularly, cross". Under "crucify" he adds, "Drive a stake into the ground, fasten on a stake, impale, now popular usage, crucify, though there was no crosspiece". [Keyword Concordance by A.E. Knoch]

Some have contended that the Romans did use crosses for execution at that time although Livy refutes this. Even if this were so, the Romans were also careful to observe local customs as fas as possible to avoid unnecessarily upsetting the populace, and so likely would have modified their method to conform to the Jewish practice. A rough upright stake would be in any case less trouble to produce than a hewn cross with a joint strong enough to bear the weight of a man.

Christians are sometimes disturbed to learn that the cross, considered for centuries as a Christian symbol, had its origin long before Christ and was actually used in pagan mythology.It was the symbol of the god Tammuz, and Bacchus, and the Egyptian Osiris. It was worshipped by the Celtic druids and worn on necklaces by the Vestal Virgins of Rome...As the Greek text shows, Christ was not executed on a Cross, that symbol can be regarded for what it is, a pagan corruption of Christian worship introduced in the early centuries of our common era. Thus in harmony with 2 Cor 6:15 although long cherished, it is something that Christians should shun." [21st Century NT appendix ]

Since no ancient historian gave a vivid engineering description of exactly what instrument was actually used for crucifixion and the Koine Greek word actually means ‘stake’ it could have taken many forms and probably did as it is well known that the Romans varied their methods from time to time, but usually used olive wood in the area of Palestine, I guess this can be called a mystery and not fact as many take its shape or form to be as there is evidence both ways. However, it is an admitted pagan symbol even by the Catholic Encyclopedia and therefore should not be venerated.

Let’s face it, I think we will agree that many use the figure of a cross as an object of worship, and where that happens we are no better than the pagans who did the very same thing. The cross is a symbol of Christ's humiliation, but we are saved through his BLOOD that was shed that day. Let us envision it this way. If our Saviour was killed by a gun, would we be hanging that around our necks. It is too macabre to sprinkle blood on our shirts to commemorate this important event, and using the cross as a symbol of our affection in the Lord Jesus Christ is not necessary. After all, we are walking by faith, not by sight. The important thing is “ For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:45 AV).

Note, I am quite sick so will not be able to answer all till better.

your friend in Christ Iris89
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Old 10-06-2006, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Science
Iris

You quote the bible which I refute as a book written by people. GOD did not write this book.

Regarding your religion, do you use the cross or crucifix as a symbol of your religion?

I asked leouna that question and got no answer.

See my post on the 'Counter Crusade'.

NS

We live during time of crypto-jews, pretending to be Christians, and making war for their supposed idol. Some of these are the people who poison the earth, to make themselves appear righteous to their neighbors.

Some of us, need to live through these times, as prisoners of conscience, knowing there are deeper meanings of faith that we cannot wear around our neck, but must express through our actions.

There are times when idols must change their relationships to us, and if people are not ready, demonic possession can be a hazard some must endure.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you New Science, but what the heck.

Angels Away;
etc.
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Old 10-06-2006, 02:25 AM
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News flash :

Iris Delusional - Does not recognize own hypocrisy.
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Old 10-06-2006, 04:11 AM
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[quote=iris89]Hi Mister Agenda

FIRST, I am a Bible and Religious researcher, I dig out the facts, and I present the facts in an honest way. My writings are research products and of necessity are a little long as they contain extensive backup; whereas, the post of most are opinions and require little space.

SECOND, As I said elsewhere on another topic,
Quote:
When reading many post I unfortunately sense some hate on some poster’s parts. This is NOT good as Jesus (Yeshua), the Isa, clearly said at Matthew 22:37-40, “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Authorized King James Bible; AV).

In fact, some even get hate of individual mixed up with showing love by exposing false doctrines, and wrong practices with a view to assisting all in dropping false doctrines, and replacing wrong practices with good practices.

My latest article clearly showed how one religion used the proverbial sword to force conversion to a false religion literally at sword point which is both an unloving and wicked practice at the same time. To read my latest article, go to:

Islam, Violent From The Beginning Using India as An Example: at
http://www.frostcloud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9438

Also, my articles are not ones of hate, but ones that expose false doctrine and wrong practice. If you will read them instead of posting false accusations, you will find not one word of hate in them. They are posted to assist all in knowing the truth, per John 8:32, and to assist all in making a change in their lives by getting out of groups and/or religions that practice false doctrine and wrong practices.

You need to learn about love and that includes warning others with respect false doctrine and wrong practices instead of thinking of hate such as those examples you mentioned,

Your friend in Christ Iris89
What examples I mentioned? All I asked is that you have a conversation instead of a lengthy monologue (a vain hope judging from the above). If you think THAT's hate, you're in the wrong forum, 'cause I'm a teddy bear compared to some of the folks around here. Whom you may not have heard much from, come to think of it, seeing as you speak in lengthy article form which most here won't bother reading.
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:37 PM
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I dont think so realize on here that he is a broken record. No matter what you say to him he repeats what he has posted on another site or thread on here. I have asked him repeated to reform his paragraphs to SHOW his opinion WITH the facts that eh presents, he doesnt do that. ANd both me and Cul have asked his background so we can get some kind of idea who he is....but he ignores that.
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:44 PM
iris89 iris89 is offline
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hi everyone

I am a researcher and give facts with backing, not opinions.

your friend in Christ Iris89
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Old 10-06-2006, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iris89
hi everyone

I am a researcher and give facts with backing, not opinions.

your friend in Christ Iris89
Your claim that you're a researcher is an opinion without backing.
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To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
-- Theodore Roosevelt
To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice.
--Confucius

Remember, Democracy can not be spread by the barrel of a gun.

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Old 10-06-2006, 04:38 PM
iris89 iris89 is offline
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hi Galpharone

WRONG, backed up by my research producys,

your friend in Chrisi Iris89
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Old 10-06-2006, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iris89
hi Galpharone

WRONG, backed up by my research producys,

your friend in Chrisi Iris89
Which NOT A SINGLE ONE OF US HAS SEEN ANY PROOF OF.
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To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
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To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice.
--Confucius

Remember, Democracy can not be spread by the barrel of a gun.

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Old 10-06-2006, 04:51 PM
iris89 iris89 is offline
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hi Galpharone

Go buy a new pair of glasses.

your friend in Christ Iris89
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Old 10-06-2006, 04:54 PM
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If you're talking about the posts you made here as your research material then I call bullshit because it's all biased and quite often is innacurate. Iris, you can't say you're a researcher based on the things you posted here and then say the things you posted here are accurate because you're a researcher, it's circular logic and it doesn't prove anything.
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To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
-- Theodore Roosevelt
To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice.
--Confucius

Remember, Democracy can not be spread by the barrel of a gun.

I'm a Libertarian Transhumanist Atheist and a proud member of the reality-based community.

Last edited by Galphanore; 10-06-2006 at 05:01 PM.
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