FrostCloud Forums  

Go Back   FrostCloud Forums > Philosophy > General Philosophy

Greetings!

General Philosophy Thought-provoking, philosophical discussions.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16  
Old 03-06-2009, 07:08 PM
Ragi's Avatar
Ragi Ragi is offline
Introverted Excavator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 671
Also, going with this line of thought in relation to knowing God - you can't know God unless you stop believing in God. Because you're only believing in your map of God (the word God and your presuppositions about it in hopes that you can confirm what you already mapped out so you can be happy and secure feeling). Still trying to put a flowing river in a bucket.
__________________
Some of my art

When you smile it is like a song and I can hear it now
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #17  
Old 03-06-2009, 08:08 PM
SpudWithKnife SpudWithKnife is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,131
You are making the ASSUMPTION that i have explained what i mean by God. I never clarified in this thread what i meant by God nor do i think i even mentioned what that God was supposed to be other that Mikes' "light".
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-07-2009, 06:53 AM
Mike Dubbeld Mike Dubbeld is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,649
Nothing exists outside your mind is much like saying the universe is the only reality and only shows you think you are your mind and this is completely false. What is true is when you control your mind you control the entire universe/inner and outer. In yoga this is nothing more than a distraction in the end. In yoga practicioners can go on to become what we could only call gods and even higher 'offices' called 'rulers of cycles' as in cycles of Creation itself. All are only temptations. As long as awareness/consciousness is attached to ANYTHING in the universe it is enslaved by it how ever lofty the office. The less you care for mother nature the more she follows you around to tempt you. When you do not care for her at all she becomes your slave. Only when you are clueless who you are do you believe you are your mind. A thought of a tree is exactly that. I am not the thought of the tree any more than I am the tree. My awareness/consciousness moves through the mind and senses (forms) and that is what constitutes reality for 99.99999% of the planet simply because that is ALL YOU KNOW HOW TO DO OR EVER HAVE DONE AND IS LIKELY ALL YOU WILL EVER DO. That does not make it any more real than sitting in prison with the other prisoners discussing the fine view of the outside world from the window you have simply accepting your fate. It is the exact same thing as what Plato tried to tell people in his Parable of the Cave. The prisoners are tied to a wall such that they cannot move their heads to the side and all they can see is a wall in front of them with shadows on it. That is all they see all their life and that is what constitutes reality for them. When one escapes and makes his way up to the Light, it is blinding and at first he cannot see. His eyes were so accumstomed to the darkness (politics of the cave) when he looked out over the mountain it took his breath away with astonishment. He knew the shadows on the wall in the cave were not real. He went back into the cave to tell the others chained to the wall but they said he was crazy. It was the shadows that were real. After all, all of them looking at the shadows agreed they were real so they must be real...... That is much like conversations on FC. People here dumbing down the subject to one about the nature of the shadows on the wall.

Just because you cannot (and likely never will) control your mind does not mean everyone is in your sad boat. You say you control your mind? Go ahead. Just try to stop thinking for even 10 seconds. No, you are enslaved to your mind. You are controled BY your mind. Your thoughts pull your awareness to them. They are the result of desires. No one has ever taught you how to watch your mind think. Listen passively to your thoughts. Try to track backward without disturbing your mind to where they have come from. Ask yourself - why was I thinking of this. Oh I was thinking of where my car is because I heard thunder and I may need to get to it before I get wet out here. You desire not to get wet. A very simple example but if you trace backward every single thought, you will find it is the result of a desire dreamed up by ego. And most of your so-called reality is nothing more than your dreaming and scheming to control events in the future. Very little time do you spend experiencing living in the moment without thought (which children do vastly more than adults). These desires in your mind enslave you to your thoughts. The thoughts control your awareness instead of as it should be - your awareness controlling your thoughts. If this was not true, you could not possibly talk the way all of you have in what you said above. You basically TELL on yourself/tell what you do not know.

Buit again not everyone is in your sad boat. Not everyone is as lost and confused about who they are and what life is and the purpose for which they are born. Even if someone tells you as I am now, your ego will supress it because any and ALL attempts to control your mind is a direct assault on your ego. Ego screams like a struck pig at any and all such attempts to control it. Forcing your mind to pay attention to one thing in concentration forces the ego to lessen in importance/shrink. Your ego will not allow you to concentrate - it will instead use any and all means available to disuade you from concentration. It will have you take up scuba diving or learn quantum physics or climb Mt. Everest - ALL of which are much easier than controlling your mind. To control your mind requires enormous will and that is why gurus are out of the religous tradition - where they can find people that have the necessary will even if they do not have the necessary knowlege.

Here, you all think your fart is as good as any other and I deny that completely. Its more like I have to dumb myself down to even having to use language the way you do just to be able to communicate with you. As in you use words in sentences incorrectly/in nonsensical ways. You think you can obscure your ignorance using a vast array of unrelated concepts to confuse the issue. You claim I do the same thing and at the same time swk then complain when I repeat myself over and over again. I use different ways of saying the same thing because the truth IS SIMPLE even if the details are not.

I basically had to beat it out of wu that he or she is an atheist claiming only the mind/universe is real - even if he or she does not know it themselves. The mind is part of the universe and we are not. We were never born and cannot die. We are immortal indestructible souls. Not part of the spacetime cage of time and space that the mind and the rest of the universe is. You can never know these things by mind. By mind all you can ever have is theories and fatih in those theories. The only way you can ever know who you are apart from all these silly theories is by direct experience from concentration leading to meditation and samadhi. That you will never have as you could never acquire the willpower to control the mind leading to these things. It is for reasons such as this I can only recommend you turn to religion and have faith in religion because you are simply not going to do any better and at least there you might acquire the will to actually get a peek beyond the veil instead of coloring your special veil.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-07-2009, 07:38 AM
Mike Dubbeld Mike Dubbeld is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,649
Also there are many 'heaven's' an infinite number of them. Based on all that has been said above your concern should be who it is that goes to heaven. If you don't know who you are it is pointless to talk about these things. What is it/who is it that goes to 'heaven'? What is heaven? Where is it. SWK basically knows the story of Autobiography of a Yogi and that is basically the way it is. Is true when you die you take your mind with you as well as your emotions and a copy of your current physical body. But all these things exist in 'heaven' as subtle matter. Not gross physical matter you see around you. What happens to you at death depends on your karma on Earth. Some people's heavens are other peoples hell. At death you are judged by your karma. (not St. Peter). But you can't stay. Unlike Earth where bodies expire in about 100 years it is possible to stay in some heavens for 10's of millions of years but that is not normal and it is most often in the thousands of years but time in the astral world is not the same as it is here. A few seconds in this world may only go by but in astral worlds it can seem like years. But no one can stay no matter how long. In the end, you will be pulled back into rebirth to fullfill karmic desires left unfinished. This can go on for a very long time dying and being reborn into various heavens again. Each time you will have your mind, emotions and a copy of your present body for the most part. This is not the goal sought by yoga. Yoga says all birth of any sort involves inevitably suffering. All birth involves satisfying desires/enslavement to mind/ego and bodies. The goal of yoga is Liberation from all such 'heavens'. Kaivalya or Freedom is freedom from mind/bodies/emotions/heavens. To be born into a heaven makes it a matter of fact that you have karmic desires that need to be fullfilled. That is why you are in that particular heaven in the first instance.

But I want to appeal to a deeper understanding. All these heavens I am talking about - what can we make of them? They are nothing more than FORMS in which consciousness is ensnarred by karmic desires. The fact of the matter is we CREATE all these realities in order to fullfill karmic desires. We ensnare ourselves. We are the creator of all we attract. How we see the world (any world or heaven) is our own doing/fault. The reality we create is the reality we get. It is only after many many lives of being born into these bodies that we come to realize this. That we are not our mind, body or emotions at all. By understanding this, the grip of a particular reality looses to the extent of that understanding. Samadhi is not a flash of understanding. Samadhi is a steady, unbroken flow of understanding where the mind and senses are left far far behind. Samdhi enables us to see through all these dream worlds/phantasms we have constructed ourselves.
We are like sombalists/we have fallen asleep to our own identity. We have carried around a mind, body and emotions for so long we think they are who we are like someone that has driven a car so long they have forgotten it is not who they are.

I have told the story/analogy of vibration and astral/dream worlds many times. How many 'heavens' co-exist simultaneously. That is why I am interested in waves and quantum things. You are never going to get the fact that you are not your mind. Somebody has to start looking in the right places in science because science is not to a large extent for the same reason you are never going to get the fact that you are not your mind. They cannot even think about certain things correctly simply because they do not put words into sentences that are actually meaningful and they make a lot of wrong assumptions much like you do believing yourself to be your mind.

None of what I said anywhere contradicts either Darwinism or neuroscience. The universe is 13.7 billion years old. Darwinism is true. Neuroscience is making great discoveries about the brain. DNA and the human genome are great. All of these things are about BODIES - particular FORMS in a particular reality.

Why don't I ever see any people from Subramunia or Vishnu or Vivekanada or Sivananda on these forums? I guess hatha yoga has turned into airhead land for stretching and 'feeling good about yourself' land. 'Shove me in the shallow waters, before I get too deep....' Ignorance is bliss. It didn't always used to be that way.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-07-2009, 04:59 PM
wu_wang's Avatar
wu_wang wu_wang is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Dubbeld View Post
Nothing exists outside your mind is much like saying the universe is the only reality and only shows you think you are your mind and this is completely false.
Every personal mind is illusion. Personal mind is nothing without that real and absolute one. Take out of our personal minds the Light of the real one and it will rest darkness.

How could we reach the Universal Mind but by means of our individual and personal mind? How could we get out of the illusion but by means of our personal mind?

Mike, you are talking too much; it's impossible to read your long extended posts when no due order is in your reasoning.

On the other hand, the universe such as we perceive it, is illusory forms; think better of that only real creator of such forms. The only absolute reality is the creator and its absolute Being, the substance which supports the universal illusory forms.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-07-2009, 05:15 PM
Ragi's Avatar
Ragi Ragi is offline
Introverted Excavator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife View Post
It is all but too convenient for people like Mike to say "there is a God" and "there is an afterlife" but "there are no words to describe them". That is an excuse and cop out.
I don't think that is necessarily true. Language is a map for the eternally present flux of reality and Mike has asserted over and over (and I think accurately) that "the map is not the territory."

I also think that you and Mike both make a lot of assumptions created by the use of this language by forgetting that it is only a map. If either of you followed this line of thought to its conclusion you would realize that talking about God, and light, and minds, etc. are just utilitarian sounds empty of intrinsic meaning.

In other words, not only is it not a cop out, but you're entirely missing out on God/the afterlife/heaven/hell/the people around you/etc. going on all around you right now by using a map (language) instead of opening yourself to the territory (even using the word "territory" is missing the point).

You're both essentially trying to put a flowing river into a bucket to study a flowing river (and so am I by posting this).
You made the implicit assumption that you are able to accurately talk about God with words and that it is actually a cop out not to - I tried to address that in the above quotations. I'm not sure what I was assuming other than what you seemed to make pretty clear.

My second post was just following my own line of thought and was not necessarily related to anything you had said.
__________________
Some of my art

When you smile it is like a song and I can hear it now
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-07-2009, 07:30 PM
SpudWithKnife SpudWithKnife is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,131
I didn't make any implicit or explicit assumptions about God. I said that it should be possible to describe an experience of awareness without thoughts in language.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-08-2009, 05:10 PM
wu_wang's Avatar
wu_wang wu_wang is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 547
The two creative principles

The universal reality is reduced to two creative principles. We can say that the Absolute Being is at the same time creative and receptive principle, this last one matter of its creation. It is so to speak that the universe is the creation of the bipolar interaction of two universal principles one creative positive and other receptive negative. The old wisdom of East: old Egypt, and old China, had already discovered these great truths which unfortunately have almost disappeared with the so called western culture development.

This is the simplest thing that we can affirm of the universe; everything can be explained through the creative bipolar interaction of such principles. This activity has a multiplying or cumulative effect that appears to us like the enormous complexity of the physical as much as the mental reality of the universe. When we try to separate the universal bipolar interaction into independent realities, then we incur in errors that I dare to affirm are the common denominator of our science and western philosophy.

Then, the difference between the mental and the physical is made by us because we generally ignore the nature of the real bipolar interaction of the two universal principles. The things are so complex that we have to explain them in order, not the whole thing at the same time. Let me go little by little in the future in order to make it clear the best as possible.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-08-2009, 05:25 PM
SpudWithKnife SpudWithKnife is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,131
God and free will cannot co-exist.

End of debate.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-09-2009, 03:20 PM
Ragi's Avatar
Ragi Ragi is offline
Introverted Excavator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 671
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife View Post
God and free will cannot co-exist.

End of debate.
Like I said before, the word "God" is only a map. You're creating a problem using language that is not really a problem.

The question, "can God and free will coexist?" is like a non-question - it would be similar to asking, "how many angles does a circle have?"

If you know the nature of a circle then you don't worry about how many angles it has. If you know that the word "God" is a concept/a map/a symbol of language/a finger pointing to the moon/etc. you won't get caught in the trap you set for yourself.
__________________
Some of my art

When you smile it is like a song and I can hear it now
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-09-2009, 05:02 PM
wu_wang's Avatar
wu_wang wu_wang is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 547
The Universal Substance

The universal Mind is the absolute creator, the only real being. Our individual mind is illusion of the universal Mind. If we got out of the illusion, our individual minds would disappear and fusion with that real one. There is only the creative Mind and its own being that is to say, the substance or matter of all universal form as said formerly. Material forms are born, evolve and finally disappear to give rise other new ones. The process is interminable. The creator is projected in the forms. It could be said that the creator is eternal in the creation of forms and that the universe does not have an end; that because the creator is infinite.

The only lasting reality of material forms is the substance, matter or universal being. For that reason we can say that the forms are illusory. What reality could have the forms themselves if they are not perdurable?

Are material forms outside the mind of the creator? If we understand what previously I’ve said this we will give account that nothing is outside the creative mind and its own being. The material forms are like the creator’s “physical body”. We can separate, but only mentally, both creative principles: the mind and the universal being, the first creative the second receptive. The interaction of the two universal polarities manifests in the creation of the Universe.

But we must repeat that nothing exists outside the universal mind; nothing exists outside the individual mind of each one of us if we understand that this one is only illusion of the universal mind.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-09-2009, 08:35 PM
Ragi's Avatar
Ragi Ragi is offline
Introverted Excavator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 671
wu_wang, why might any of this be true?

Right now it just feels like listening to Joseph Smith (founder of Mormonism) supposedly revealing God's message to us through a seer stone in a hat.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but I could just as easily say that actually the world is created by the magic wand of an invisible fairy. I know this from direct realization and you can't prove that I'm wrong, because if fairies exist then this is a completely logical explanation. But since I didn't give any reason why this might be true, I'm just making shit up.
__________________
Some of my art

When you smile it is like a song and I can hear it now

Last edited by Ragi; 03-09-2009 at 08:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-09-2009, 09:36 PM
wu_wang's Avatar
wu_wang wu_wang is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragi View Post
...I could just as easily say that actually the world is created by the magic wand of an invisible fairy... But since I didn't give any reason why this might be true, I'm just making shit up.
Yes of course.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-10-2009, 12:41 AM
Ragi's Avatar
Ragi Ragi is offline
Introverted Excavator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 671
Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_wang View Post
Yes of course.
So why might what you are saying be true?
__________________
Some of my art

When you smile it is like a song and I can hear it now
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-10-2009, 10:44 AM
wu_wang's Avatar
wu_wang wu_wang is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 547
Mind and matter

I can say here only what truth is for me. If anybody does not see the truth in what I am saying that is a question of each one.

Matter cannot be perceived but by reflection, because it is only component of our own being. Matter is not direct object of conscience it is the reflecting means of conscience of the total being. The error of materialism roots in making the separation between matter and mind never realizing that they are two sides of the same reality. Mind, the creative positive and matter, the receptive negative, cannot exist separately by themselves, both support each other.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Watchers TruthInArt Religion 9 08-16-2009 06:22 PM
Heaven Follower Religion 2 03-12-2007 05:52 AM
Big Business Buys Silence Of Toll Road Critical Newspapers ArghMonkey Politics and World Events 6 02-04-2007 01:19 AM
Discourse on the Two Paths of So Called Christianity - The Genuine and the Counterfei iris89 Religion 580 01-22-2007 04:03 PM
existance of heaven otana Religion 10 10-27-2005 12:48 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:29 AM.



Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2008 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Hosted and Maintained by The IceStorm Network