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  #1  
Old 07-09-2010, 07:29 PM
aaabha aaabha is offline
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Does God know it all?.

The age-old question : if God knows everything, then terrible things would not happen. But they do, so God cannot know everything.

> So how can God know everything without knowing everything?

Well to God, ALL things are possible...

A parent often pretends not to know something so as to prompt a child to give the correct answer.

A person often deliberately avoids the outcome of an event so as to watch the event unfold.

> So God CAN know everything. Thats not the same as WANTING to know everything NOW.


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  #2  
Old 07-09-2010, 09:48 PM
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By definition if you're omnipotent you're also omniscient. The only way I can reconcile it is that God's omnipresence requires it to be everything. Free will would suggest everything but us. When you look at free will it's limited to opportunity and willpower. You can choose not to make the obviously correct decision out of spite or to reduce your predictability (though your spitefulness can become predictable very quickly).

All things are essentially information when you break them down into their smallest building blocks.
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Old 07-26-2010, 06:56 AM
Russell1A Russell1A is offline
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The concept of omnipotence has been superseded by the concept of maximum power due to the logical contradictions inherent in omnipotence.

Howevwer in theory an entity can be omniscient without having maximum power. Interestingly classical omniscience can only exist in a deterministic universe where there is no free will.

Russell
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Old 07-26-2010, 06:40 PM
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Well, I think maybe you could know everything without knowing what's going to happen. You could understand (hyper) quantum theory, and still not know what an individual particle will do; so you could know, and yet not know.
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  #5  
Old 07-27-2010, 12:17 AM
shawn77 shawn77 is offline
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First we must define if god is a benevolent god. As for the christian god, logic debunks his existance for how can a benevolent god allow evil, or for that matter an omniscient, benevolent god create man KNOWING of the sin that would cause them to fall. Now a god may exist, however the idea of his benevolence would be in questions, or the idea of right and wrong, good and evil as well.

As for the idea of him not wanting to know everything: that simply doesnt matter. not that he doesnt want to, but its that he HAS to know. Omniscient means ALL knowing, not selective knowing.
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  #6  
Old 07-27-2010, 04:18 AM
Mike Dubbeld Mike Dubbeld is offline
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God knows everything at all times. It is only when minds try to dumb God down into some silly religion where problems come up. Religions especially the Abrahmic religions try depict God as some kind of "Who". Why am I suffering? Because God does not like you because you sinned. That is baloney. If you cannnot see the Light it is not because God does not like you. It is because you walked under a tree. It is not about what God does. It is about what you as a mind do. God never does, ever did or ever will do anything whatsoever. It is the universe that is changing. God never changes. God is like a catalyst. A catalyst causes a chemical change without itself becoming changedf. The 'vicinity' of God with respect to universe's so to speak gives rise to those universes (and thereby all things in them including you) behaving in deterministic ways.

The God of the Bible is depicted in absurd ways as having made a covenant with jews. Having a special relationship with jews. Like people have relationships with other people. God gets angry and all that other comic book stuff. This is just dumbing God down with emotions and the idea God needs us for something somehow in a relationship.
The god of the bible and other religions is a 'who' personality-mind. Its the only way our minds can come to grips of understanding God and only shows how funny we as minds are and nothing more.

You take the Book of Job where God is making a bet with the devil on his man Job. Think about this. This puts the implicit idea in the mind of the reader that God cannot know everything because if so it would not be a fair bet or else God is cheating. And what sort of omnicient/omnipresent/omnipotent sort of God feels the need to make bets with devils? Its all comic book stuff. The God of the bible as depicted in it would be more closely compared to some sort of powerful alien. Maybe you are comfortable worshiping powerful aliens. How about tanks? I am sure lots of tribes in Africa do..... LOL
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Old 07-27-2010, 01:48 PM
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God and other people came down from the sky in spacesuits. Of course they looked like they knew everything because they could travel around space and visit people on other planets. The communication between the Gods and the Earthlings wasn't comprehensible so the Earthlings made up miraculous stories about them and assumed they (the gods) knew everything when really I don't think they did know everything. They knew a lot but not much more than what we know today.

Even their space travel probably was from a planet not much further from the earth and something happened to that planet since then and we don't have a record of it because it vanished and the Earthlings then didn't have the technology to see anything out in space and see that the gods planet exploded or something. But would the aftermath still linger somehow today? I don't understand how space goes back in time. If we could pinpoint the time god came into existence on earth we could probably find gods origin in outer space.
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  #8  
Old 07-28-2010, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaabha View Post
The age-old question : if God knows everything, then terrible things would not happen. But they do, so God cannot know everything.

> So how can God know everything without knowing everything?

Well to God, ALL things are possible...

A parent often pretends not to know something so as to prompt a child to give the correct answer.

A person often deliberately avoids the outcome of an event so as to watch the event unfold.

> So God CAN know everything. Thats not the same as WANTING to know everything NOW.


.
Is there a nobel prize for philosophy?

~~~

Quote:
Omniscient means ALL knowing, not selective knowing.
Yes, but such a definition results in a contradiction,
because we cannot know ALL,
and at the same time know what it feels like to be ignorant.

The very concept 'all' defies itself, because it would have to include something that is 'not all' too, in order to be truly 'ALL'.

The set of all sets would have to include the set of 'not all sets', which would mean that something is existing and not existing at the same time.

:-?
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Old 07-28-2010, 08:56 PM
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In order to solve this paradox,
we need more than one dimension of time.

In T1 God knows all, this is akin to 'author's time'

In T2, god knows ignorance and, then later, all, this is akin to 'reader's time'

In T3, the character/persona is ignorant to a point that he never knows all.

~

Think of yourself as 'if' you were God.
Write some fiction without any ignorance/bad stuff in it, that is at the same time also worth reading...
at least 15 000 words,
until you have tried that.... hmmmm you will not really see the world from the point of view of God
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:24 AM
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Know all

For the first time in history the possibility exists that all men can be connected to each other in real time. The Internet has made this possible.

We are but a twitch second response from each other in a gaming forum.
All things are possible including that which was once perceived as impossible.

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  #11  
Old 07-29-2010, 02:09 AM
andy_amfad andy_amfad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoseidonsNet View Post
Is there a nobel prize for philosophy?

~~~



Yes, but such a definition results in a contradiction,
because we cannot know ALL,
and at the same time know what it feels like to be ignorant.

The very concept 'all' defies itself, because it would have to include something that is 'not all' too, in order to be truly 'ALL'.

The set of all sets would have to include the set of 'not all sets', which would mean that something is existing and not existing at the same time.

:-?

WE cannot know all.
WE cannot know all.

WHY are you applying the concepts of theory and knowledge of the human mind to God?
WHAT a ridiculous thing to do.
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  #12  
Old 07-29-2010, 04:47 AM
Mike Dubbeld Mike Dubbeld is offline
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I as mind would refine that to We as mind cannot know everything. ('Nobody's' perfect.....) However since we are not our mind anyway it is not an overwhelming problem. There is no limit to Consciousness. If I am aware (conscious) of a tree, I am not a tree. If I think the thought of a tree, I am not the thought of the tree either. The mind with its thoughts can be thought of as an object in the sense that just like trees and houses and birds and all else have certain properties. Consciousness moves through the mind of thoughts and we call that thinking. It is when we come to believe that the thoughts are 'us' that problems occur and language breaks down. 'We' as consciousness are not what we are conscioius of whether it is a tree or the thought in the mind of a tree. God is pure consciousness and we are a part of that consciousnessness much like The ocean is composed of H20 so is the raindrop. God is the ocean and we raindrops. We contain the same potential divineness as souls (and consciousness as associated with the universe). Same Divine Essence. Doing good brings out more consciousness and understanding and happiness. Doing bad the converse. So then we come into the world of the mind with its good and bad ideas and morality and a big fat mess. You could say God created the universe and man as mind decorated it. (Or more accurately - the universe came about due to its proximity with God as catalyst and man as ego-mind bestowed an artificial order on it.)

There is no such thing as good and bad. There is only cause and effect. Certain actions in the world enable more Light and others less Light. The 'good' in that sense is those actions that do increase Light/Consciousness. The 'bad' otherwise. Cause and effect. Karma. You do 'good' as per above and 'good' things happen to you. At death we are not judged by St. Peter. It is our own set of causes and effects (karma) that determines our fate as consciousness at death. In that sense one can see how God has nothing to do with it. Cause and effect like all other things in the universe.

I am quite suprised no one challenged my statement above that God does nothing whatsoever. I won't give it away but one can imagine what the universe might be like if God 'did' things and how it cannot be true that God does do things. A good analogy is like the theoretical mathematical point at the center of a wheel. All parts of the wheel 'move' ('do things') except the point at its exact center upon which all else moves. God is at the center of everything yet does nothing.
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  #13  
Old 07-29-2010, 05:13 AM
Mike Dubbeld Mike Dubbeld is offline
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In the Platonic dialog Euthyphro (search it), Socrates comes to find out Euthyphro is on his way to attend a trial to have his father put to death. Socrates wants to know from Euthyphro how it is he can justify what he is doing - is it moral to try to have your father executed. Euthyphro is a big windbag claming to know all about morality and is certain it is moral to do this. At a certain point in the dialog, they discuss the piety of the gods. Does the fact that the gods liking something make it 'good'? Or does the fact that something is good that the gods like it? If something is good because the gods like it, this means today they might like humanity and tomorrow not and destroy all humans. There would be no order in the universe. If on the other hand the gods like something because it is good, order can exist. Zeus won't be changing his mood from moment to moment as to whether or not to hurl a lightning bolt down on you...... LOL

Well what does this have to do with anything? There IS order in the universe. We might not associate it with gods however one might imagine having a god like in the bible that gets angry at jews and makes bets with devils (pride/vanity) - such a god would not bode well for a universe surviving for billions of years. A lawful universe our physics describes.

If Andromeda Galaxy is 2.5 million light years away (6 trillion x 2.5 million miles), and there is life on other planets there and the fastest allowable speed in the universe is the SOL, well then, how does Jesus handle this? There are 165 billion galaxies in the visible universe (Hubble ST Ultra Deep Field extrapolation). How is Jesus going to get around to answering the prayers of other intelligent life inhabitants? Big logistical problem. Or is there a Jesus for each galaxy (our Milky Way galaxy is about 100,000 light years across - it takes light 100,000 years to go from one end to the other). Still a big logistical problem for Jesus even in one savior per galaxy.

Well what is my point? Can't work as is. Got to be more to it than that. The God depicted in the bible creates more problems than it solves. You cannot simply run and hide from science. God is the Essence of Truth. All people engaged in the search for truth are on a search for God whether they know it or not. The bible and other religious scriptures simply cannot be taken literally.
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