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  #31  
Old 03-15-2004, 10:51 PM
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  #32  
Old 03-15-2004, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culinarean
Its a moot point for me Lycan, because I know that my loved ones will be with me in Heaven. Anyway, all our worldly ties and the baggage we have here on earth will no longer be with us when we enter heaven.
'Judge not'...Man you guys use the bible as you please and ingnore it when it suits you...(I could not have asked for a better responce than this to show the xtian mentallity)
How can you be sure...Your bible tells you you cannot be sure for anyone but yourself!

Comon...quit avoiding the question...just try and answer it!!! If you cannot -- I am not asking you to give up your faith -- just accept the fact -- your ideas may be WRONG-- And you may have alot more growing to do once the xtian ideas are out of the way!!!
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  #33  
Old 03-16-2004, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan T
'Judge not'...Man you guys use the bible as you please and ingnore it when it suits you...(I could not have asked for a better responce than this to show the xtian mentallity)
If you look at any of my posts, I have not judged anyone, although some have twisted my words and say that I have. I DO tell it as I see it using the framework that I have decided on. I have never and will never give a contradictory position on any of my views. As far as when to use the bible, I use it when it is needed, and not when it is not needed. In fact, I usually don't use it as the basis of an argument, just when needed for clarification purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan T
How can you be sure...Your bible tells you you cannot be sure for anyone but yourself!
Call it a judgement call on this point. We christians can make those, unless of course you say its not in our mentality to think for ourselves. I make this judgement call based on what I know that my loved ones believe and on the actions that I have seen them perform and the life that they have lived. There is nothing there that will send them to hell, so I made that judgement call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan T
Comon...quit avoiding the question...just try and answer it!!! If you cannot -- I am not asking you to give up your faith -- just accept the fact -- your ideas may be WRONG-- And you may have alot more growing to do once the xtian ideas are out of the way!!!
I never said I was right on everything, in fact, if you look at other posts I have made in other threads, that has been expressed already. Also, I don't try to forcefeed my opinions on people, I state them and hopefully the other person reads them and takes them for what they are, personal opinions. the only issues that I've sent down someones throat are the ones they say I have, but that's not the case if you look at the post and the content that it was posted in.

As far as the christian ideas out of the way, is like telling me to put my hand on the table over there while we go to a different room. It can't be done because those beliefs are an integral part of who I am and my moral and ethical makeup. Now if you want, I can try to look at something from another perspective, but you need to let me know which perspective you want me to look at it from for an intelligent response in that way.
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  #34  
Old 03-16-2004, 03:23 AM
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Culin,

You said 'because I know that my loved ones will be with me in Heaven.' then you said 'Call it a judgement call on this point. ', then 'There is nothing there that will send them to hell, so I made that judgement call. ''

I didn't know we could do that!!!

THere is so much I could say..but it would not be nice...so I will shut up!!!

MMMM...Any other xtians like to answer???
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  #35  
Old 03-16-2004, 04:36 AM
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Hmm...

Wow!

Quite a lot of debate on this one, isn't there?
Why is it that folks find it difficult to accept hell? Let me put it another way (and perhaps challenge some to consider my view)

Suppose you have a brother, or a son, or whatever relative you care to think of - and they commit a crime. Do you stop loving them because of it ? Or do you discount the law because they broke it ? Can not love and justice co-exist ?
If your relative breaks the law and is punished for it, would you be sad forever ? Sadness can be taken away - exactly what God's promise declares about heaven.
How can we be happy in heaven if we have relatives roasting in hell ? By accepting that those relatives chose their path just as we have.

It is one of the reason Christians are to tell the gospel, the good news of the promises of God - just as in real life, a good man can try and steer his brother away from lawlessness. As in real life, not everyone listens to good advice.
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  #36  
Old 03-16-2004, 04:53 AM
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Will Heaven be less of a Heaven when we know there are people in Hell? I don't think so.

God won't clear our memory of others as this goes against His gift of free will. Hell will be accepted because it is just. It is a just punishment from a just God. A just God has to punish us for our sins and doesn't even have to warn us that there will be a judgement, but a loving God warns us in the hope that we will turn away from sin and come back to Him. Into His loving relationship.
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  #37  
Old 03-16-2004, 05:04 AM
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Hell is more of a when than a where.
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  #38  
Old 03-16-2004, 06:04 AM
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Asar’el

Quote:
How can we be happy in heaven if we have relatives roasting in hell ? By accepting that those relatives chose their path just as we have. It is one of the reason Christians are to tell the gospel, the good news of the promises of God.
See, this kind of reasoning is why atheists tend to be a little condescending form time to time. It’s really hard not to be. Asar’el, this nonsense about “choosing” Hell should make any rational person fall off his chair laughing. Who would chose to be tortured day and night forever? That’s just a way of making you feel better. And the arrogance! YOU chose to go to heaven. I guess you’re just smarter than the rest of us. Man, how could I not have seen that coming? Why was I so stupid to choose eternal torture over eternal bliss? I must have been drunk.



Quote:
Suppose you have a brother, or a son, or whatever relative you care to think of - and they commit a crime. Do you stop loving them because of it ? Or do you discount the law because they broke it ? Can not love and justice co-exist ?
It just amazes me that you can think this is a good argument or a remotely plausible analogy. Do you not see the difference between your brother being in prison for a finite period of time, and eternal torture? Do I really have to point it out to you? Sigh…the burden of a rational mind. The law tries to make a rational judgement on what kind of punishment fits the crime, and mainly prison is meant to REMOVE the person from society until it is felt he/she can will not do any more harm. Someone going to hell is tortured day and night forever and ever without any chance of parole.


And as for you Fallen,


Quote:
It is a just punishment from a just God. A just God has to punish us for our sins and doesn't even have to warn us that there will be a judgement, but a loving God warns us in the hope that we will turn away from sin and come back to Him. Into His loving relationship.
I want you to explain how it is just and fair to torture someone day and night for 3 billion years just because they did a few things wrong during their 70 or so years on the earth.

And, I don’t know if you’ve caught this question on other threads Fallen, but, why would God not warn all those generations of the OT about Hell? Shouldn’t they have been warned?

Address these two questions please.

At least Culinarean is able to see the pointless, cruel, stupidity of Hell and has opted for the "it's just a separation from God" whatever that actually means. I don't think anyone's really thought that part through.
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  #39  
Old 03-16-2004, 03:25 PM
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[quote=Asar'el]How can we be happy in heaven if we have relatives roasting in hell ? By accepting that those relatives chose their path just as we have.
QUOTE]

So the thought of it here -- bothers you -- but in heavan it will be ok -- meaning somehow god is going to change the way you 1) feel about your loved ones or 2) erase the memory.

Sorry xtians -- still makes no sence --- And I don't think you are convinced either.
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  #40  
Old 03-16-2004, 04:51 PM
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Looking at what is inferrd in the bible, God judges people according to the laws that he has given for them to follow, just as we, on earth judge people for the crimes they commit against society.

Looking back, God made the covenant with Abraham that his generations would be blessed. So far, no eternal hell and damnation, just a promise.

Later on, the covenant was made in Moses time with the 10 Commandments. The number was given, 144,000, of the people that would enter heaven. The rest would be left out. But that number was more symbolic. It is 12x12x1000, having to do with the 12 tribes, perfection (by the squaring of it), and 1,000 being one of the numbers relating to God (i.e. a year to God is as a thousand). So now we have a reference to heaven and the symbology shows that it is a place of perfection.

Satan is still getting all the other folks so far, so he's not too worried yet.

Then, after God gets the base set up, He adds the kicker. Now he sends Jesus to pick up the remainder and bring them home. This new covenant is between God, Jesus, and the whole of humanity. As long as you believe in your heart that He is the savior, then you will go to heaven also. It is also set forth that there will be a separation from God for those who don't believe (cause frankly, if you don't believe, then why waste your time debating this and you won't do any good in heaven either).

There is another unwritten stipulation (based on reading between the lines). If a person truly believes, then he/she will strive to live their life to Jesus example. Therefore, a person will produce good works if they have faith that Jesus is the savior. It is stated that good works alone, and also faith alone will not get you there. It is the combination of these.

Now, every promise will be honored. In revelations, it even states that the 144,000 (symbolic) will be there as well as the believers in Jesus.

Now, this only applies to those who have heard the word. those who haven't will be judged on their life and how it measures up to what God expects according to the promises that were made.

DISCLAIMER: These are my views based on my understanding of the Bible. I do not wish to force them on anyone. Just to have people understand what I am saying and take it however they want.
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  #41  
Old 03-16-2004, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culinarean
Looking at what is inferrd in the bible, God judges people according to the laws that he has given for them to follow, just as we, on earth judge people for the crimes they commit against society.

Looking back, God made the covenant with Abraham that his generations would be blessed. So far, no eternal hell and damnation, just a promise.

Later on, the covenant was made in Moses time with the 10 Commandments. The number was given, 144,000, of the people that would enter heaven. The rest would be left out. But that number was more symbolic. It is 12x12x1000, having to do with the 12 tribes, perfection (by the squaring of it), and 1,000 being one of the numbers relating to God (i.e. a year to God is as a thousand). So now we have a reference to heaven and the symbology shows that it is a place of perfection.

Satan is still getting all the other folks so far, so he's not too worried yet.

Then, after God gets the base set up, He adds the kicker. Now he sends Jesus to pick up the remainder and bring them home. This new covenant is between God, Jesus, and the whole of humanity. As long as you believe in your heart that He is the savior, then you will go to heaven also. It is also set forth that there will be a separation from God for those who don't believe (cause frankly, if you don't believe, then why waste your time debating this and you won't do any good in heaven either).

There is another unwritten stipulation (based on reading between the lines). If a person truly believes, then he/she will strive to live their life to Jesus example. Therefore, a person will produce good works if they have faith that Jesus is the savior. It is stated that good works alone, and also faith alone will not get you there. It is the combination of these.

Now, every promise will be honored. In revelations, it even states that the 144,000 (symbolic) will be there as well as the believers in Jesus.

Now, this only applies to those who have heard the word. those who haven't will be judged on their life and how it measures up to what God expects according to the promises that were made.

DISCLAIMER: These are my views based on my understanding of the Bible. I do not wish to force them on anyone. Just to have people understand what I am saying and take it however they want.
Sounds like a plot from a mystry book... LOL

The fact remain -- If there was a god...and he/she/it did not want his/her/its children to go to this place called hell...the god could make it so....without all the story telling and contracts in the bible --- I still hold to the idea that it is a great book written by man!!

Thanks for you opinion...it still does not add up though...
Your god will wipe your memories (IE loved ones etc...)-- why not everyone??? (IE of sin and unelife)

As far as the:
'Now, this only applies to those who have heard the word. those who haven't will be judged on their life and how it measures up to what God expects according to the promises that were made.' comment.

That is the first time I have heard this idea -- do you have some scripture to refrence???
One flaw I see -- If your god is going to judge those who have never heard your gospel on there life only-- That adds more fuel to my case -- Wipe out the memories of the gospel hear and unheard for everyone and judge them on there life only. If god does it for some...why not all???
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  #42  
Old 03-16-2004, 09:53 PM
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Clarification according to the bible: The difference is between those who have never had the chance to make a choice, whereas some have. Those who have not heard will be judged on thair actions. Those who have heard will be judged on both their actions and their choices in the matter. I don't have specific scripture to cite on this matter, my belief on this subject is determined from what I have seen, heard, and inferred from my knowledge of the bible.

Anyway, only God can answer the question about the exact structure of the after life.

Perhaps there are some inbetween areas for those people who fall in the cracks between actions for heaven and actions for hell. I don't know how it works after we die, but I'll try to remember to let you know when I'm there and see how it is.
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  #43  
Old 03-16-2004, 09:57 PM
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One other question. Please show me where I said that God would wipe everyone's memories. I only said that we will leave the baggage of this world behind when we go.
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  #44  
Old 03-16-2004, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culinarean
One other question. Please show me where I said that God would wipe everyone's memories. I only said that we will leave the baggage of this world behind when we go.
Sorry- -It was infered from a post from Full moon --
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  #45  
Old 03-16-2004, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culinarean
I don't know how it works after we die, but I'll try to remember to let you know when I'm there and see how it is.

LOL...Please do...do you have an OUIJA number!!

*This is a joke*
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