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Old 03-24-2004, 06:35 AM
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Biblical Geology

"He (God) can command the sun not to rise." (Job 9:7) Rather than, "He can command the earth to stop (moving/spinning)." That God would direct such a command at the sun rather than the earth, implies an unmistakably geocentric perspective. Likewise, Martin Luther pointed out that "Joshua commanded the sun to stand still and not the earth," since the earth was presumed to be at rest at all times. (Josh. 10:12)

The Bible depicts the earth as firm, immovable, the "foundation" of creation:

"Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth." (Heb. 1:10)

The sun, moon, and stars were created after the firm "foundation of the earth" was laid. (Gen. 1:9-18)

"He established the earth upon its foundations, so that it will not totter, forever and ever." (Ps. 104:5)

"The world is firmly established, it will not be moved." (Ps. 93:1 & 1 Chron. 16:30)

"For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he set the world on them." (I Sam. 2:8)

"It is I who have firmly set its pillars." (Ps. 75:3)

"Who stretched out the heavens...and established the world." (Jer. 10:12)

1 Chronicles 16:30: " Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

Psalm 93:1 "The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is established, that it cannot be moved.

Psalm 96:10: Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously...."

Psalm 104:5: " Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Ecclesiastes 1, 5:"The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose."

Psalm 19:4-6 Their line [the heavens] is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."

Joshua 10:12-13: "Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." (notice he did not stop the rotation of the Earth.)

Amergain
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Old 03-24-2004, 06:38 AM
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While at that time the Greeks saw the truth.

http://www.planetarybiology.com/evol.../evolutio2.htm

Early on, the ancient Greeks considered that life evolved into different forms.
Long ago, ancient Greek philosopher, Anaximander (ca. 611-547 BC), proposed that the Earth had gone through many changes in its history. As a consequence, life took on many different forms during each new stage of the Earth’s development. For example, Anaximander believed that fish dominated the early Earth when there was little land. As the continents appeared, some of the fish left the sea and changed to become more suited for a life on dry land. According to Anaximander, humans resided as quiescent parasites inside these land fish much like a modern day astronaut lives inside a space suit. Once the changing world could support them, humans awoke and cast off their fish skin.

Empedocles (ca 492 BC - ca 432 BC) was one of the greatest of the ancient Greek philosophers. More than 2200 years ago, he discovered the fundamental ideas of life that now support the modern theory of evolution — 1) variety amongst individuals; 2) competition; and 3) reproduction and inheritance. Empedocles saw the diversity in modern animals as a consequence of differentially endowed individuals competing with one another, and passing their attributes to their offspring.

According to Empedocles, life went through a peculiar kind of evolution. He viewed life on Earth originally as a disorganized assemblage of unattached arms, heads and other body parts. Later, these free-floating parts became attached to each other in bizarre combinations — for example, a human head on an ox body. Some of these freak animals died off, as they were unable to compete with other more richly endowed animals.

Empedocles also understood the importance of reproduction and inheritance in the continuance and evolution of life. He remarked that, considering the difficulties of survival, the kinds of animals alive today must possess special courage or other features that help them survive and reproduce themselves. In so doing, each parent passes some of their own traits to their offspring.

Amergain
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Old 04-17-2004, 03:50 AM
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Makes one wonder why the writers of those texts didn't just go ahead and name the 9 (oops, 10 now) planets. Would have saved Galileo some sleepless nights if they had published the orbits too.

Interesting that they didn't mention how all the dry land area makes a ball if the oceans and the surface area under oceans is removed. They could have told us what the diameter of that primal earth was then - before the first rain. Would have saved the plate tectonics guys some grief.

And if they had just said up front that the oceans and rivers were fresh water for all those millinnea and had become salty only after the salt domes, produced by radioactive decay in the core, were disolved. Would have saved the fish biologists a wonder or two.

Of course, they probably didn't want to bother us with discussions of gravity and other mundane concepts. I'll even bet they thought they gave us a head start on a universal field theory with just what they did tell us.
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Old 04-25-2004, 03:06 AM
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Bobbo - This is why the word Faith came into being. It is still being used today when people of the religious ilk ask why, when something does not make sense.

What Amergain speaks of (not that you do not already know) is factual information the increasingly has to be defended by the church. For thousands of years the church has defended the faith from science. It always make me laugh when I see science and religion/god in the same sentence. The two are not even related in any way. Example: Christain Science Moniter, I have read these and they are written by the dupped for the dupped.

The pope put Galileo in pergatory until he recanted his science. Even when he did recant he still left a passing word during the incantation.

All this is simple, visual, absolute, historical, provable scientific and philosophical proof the bible was indeed written by man without input from an external omnipotent source.

If god gave us a brain why did hesheit not intend for us to use it? I could go on forever with those but it appears "Faith" is stronger than reality for the dupped.
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Old 04-26-2004, 06:08 AM
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I will assume that anyone who thinks that Genesis was intended to be an absolutely correct technical "brief history of the universe" has not considered the work. The various works that have been selected to be included in the Bible were not written as one book. The original languages of those works included many colloquialisms (slang if you prefer) which were translated into terms that the court of King James would have deemed policically correct at that time. In other words, more slang. I think it unlikely that a casual reader accustomed only to today's English would get the meaning in many of those terms.

There are other considerations. Poetry rarely translates well. A competent writer will communicate on the level of the target audience. If you could return to that time, how would you phrase your knowledge of anything you know today so that the people of that era could understand it? What words would Moses have used that could have been translated into "compact disc" in 1611?

Translation always involves interpretation. The term "forty" still has the meaning of "a lot" in the arabic world today, and it was used in the Bible in exactly that way. Find the phrase "cover his shoes" as it concerned King Saul. Do you really think King James would have let the translators keep their heads if they had translated it as "take a dump"? And if they had, would anyone then have understood those words?

You may find some that take every word in the Bible as literal. There are few scholars that do. Allegory, example, parable, pick another literary device. They are all used by authors in every field to get ideas across. You may find that the forest is more important than any one individual tree.

RA, the examples I presented in my initial post were intended to remind Amergain that we still do not "know". I will guess that two or three thousand years from now our textbooks will be the source of much amusement.

As for the failings of religious people, leaders and groups? One only has to turn on CNN - or read the stories in the Bible. And what is there to make anyone believe that we will ever know the "why" of anything? No, we may know what, when, where and who, but "why" isn't on the menu.
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Old 04-26-2004, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RA
All this is simple, visual, absolute, historical, provable scientific and philosophical proof the bible was indeed written by man without input from an external omnipotent source.

If god gave us a brain why did hesheit not intend for us to use it? I could go on forever with those but it appears "Faith" is stronger than reality for the dupped.
The dupped? I myself am mildly religious, (I belive in some omnipotent being) but I do not feel that I have been dupped. I feel that somewhere, somehow, something had to get life, the universe, and everything started. If this makes me a fool in your eyes so be it, however I do take exception to your assertion that I have been fooled into beliving as I do. Whatever my beliefs they are mine, I have reasoned them out to my satisfaction, in my mind.
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Old 04-26-2004, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RA
All this is simple, visual, absolute, historical, provable scientific and philosophical proof the bible was indeed written by man without input from an external omnipotent source.

If god gave us a brain why did hesheit not intend for us to use it? I could go on forever with those but it appears "Faith" is stronger than reality for the dupped.
The dupped? I myself am mildly religious, (I belive in some omnipotent being) but I do not feel that I have been dupped. I feel that somewhere, somehow, something had to get life, the universe, and everything started. If this makes me a fool in your eyes so be it, however I do take exception to your assertion that I have been fooled into beliving as I do. Whatever my beliefs they are mine, I have reasoned them out to my satisfaction, in my mind. So I may be a fool but I don't feel I am a fool who follows.
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Old 04-26-2004, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Forgotten
The dupped? I myself am mildly religious, (I belive in some omnipotent being) but I do not feel that I have been dupped. I feel that somewhere, somehow, something had to get life, the universe, and everything started. If this makes me a fool in your eyes so be it, however I do take exception to your assertion that I have been fooled into beliving as I do. Whatever my beliefs they are mine, I have reasoned them out to my satisfaction, in my mind. So I may be a fool but I don't feel I am a fool who follows.
Very good defense T.F.

It doesn't make you a fool in my eyes. Only reflective of human limitations to know the infinite, and put attributes on it that are on a more human scale.

I assume you'd agree that people are conceived and born.
Your perception leads you to the idea that the universe had a parent!

It is very reasonable of you to cope with the concept of the infinite in terms that you see in everyday life! And, an omnipotent being is certainly an easy catch all, since "he's" omnipotent and can do anything!!!

I don't claim to truly understand infinity, except very abstractly! I don't really understand how big a billion (of anything!) is, and infinite is a whole lot bigger than that!

Attributing the origin of a universe that may have existed FOREVER to an omnipotent being is simply too much for me to believe!

Speaking of dupped - where did your ideas of an omnipotent being come from?
You may want to re-examine the source and consider what anthropomorphism means and how pervasive it is, as you further ponder our existence!

Here's an article that might interest you and others!

COSMOLOGY
The Myth of the Beginning of Time
By Gabriele Veneziano
String theory suggests that the 13.7-billion-year-old universe we know is only part of an infinite expanse that predates the big bang

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?cha...F483414B7F0000
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Old 04-28-2004, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Forgotten
The dupped? I myself am mildly religious, (I belive in some omnipotent being) but I do not feel that I have been dupped. I feel that somewhere, somehow, something had to get life, the universe, and everything started. If this makes me a fool in your eyes so be it, however I do take exception to your assertion that I have been fooled into beliving as I do. Whatever my beliefs they are mine, I have reasoned them out to my satisfaction, in my mind. So I may be a fool but I don't feel I am a fool who follows.
You have a right to believe however you wish and I have a right to believe however I wish. So, I am sticking by my original argument however I am not pointing a finger at you and calling you stupid. Do not take it that way or your defensive position only proves me right.
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Old 04-30-2004, 03:28 AM
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Back to the subject of Biblical Geology. Amergain, I have an alert for you. I was watching TV this evening and the weather forecast came on. Would you believe those dummies actually predicted that at a particular time tomorrow morning the sun would RISE? And as if to confirm their complete ignorance, they predicted a time for the sun to SET. Geez, you would think that someone would clue them in. You might want to check other weather forecast organizations. If the problem is widespread we could be in serious trouble. I mean if the religious types have taken over weather forecasting, what's next?
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Old 04-30-2004, 04:08 AM
Fallen Fallen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo
Back to the subject of Biblical Geology. Amergain, I have an alert for you. I was watching TV this evening and the weather forecast came on. Would you believe those dummies actually predicted that at a particular time tomorrow morning the sun would RISE? And as if to confirm their complete ignorance, they predicted a time for the sun to SET. Geez, you would think that someone would clue them in. You might want to check other weather forecast organizations. If the problem is widespread we could be in serious trouble. I mean if the religious types have taken over weather forecasting, what's next?
You seem to be having fun there Bobbo, don't let me spoil it. But for the love of all things sacred how is saying the sun RISES and the sun SETS wrong?!?! It is scientifically valid to use this terminology as that is what the sun does, in RELATION TO THE EARTH. The sun doesn't rise and set by running across the sky everyday but in relation to the observer on the earth it does! How do we measure speed? It is measured in relation to the immovable "foundation of the earth" not the sun or any other heavenly body, so does this make speed something "the religious types have taken over"?
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Robert Jastrow
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen
You seem to be having fun there Bobbo, don't let me spoil it. But for the love of all things sacred how is saying the sun RISES and the sun SETS wrong?!?! It is scientifically valid to use this terminology as that is what the sun does, in RELATION TO THE EARTH. The sun doesn't rise and set by running across the sky everyday but in relation to the observer on the earth it does! How do we measure speed? It is measured in relation to the immovable "foundation of the earth" not the sun or any other heavenly body, so does this make speed something "the religious types have taken over"?
Thanks for this. I had no clue what Bobbo was on about.

So, his tongue was firmly implanted in his cheek, but you believe he bit it off!
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Old 05-06-2004, 07:53 PM
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Garry Denke Garry Denke is offline
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My favorite Biblical Geology is of the Carboniferous "white stone" Limestone which is much "elder" than and rammed round about the Tertiary "lion head", "calf head", "man face", "flying eagle" Heel Stone carvings proven by palaeontological descriptions of such "white stone" "elder" fossils and by quartz hydration dating of the such "lion head", "calf head", "man face", "flying eagle" Heel Stone sculpture...

Quartz Hydration Dating (QHD) Heelstone Carvings, Stonehenge

The new technique, called Quartz Hydration Dating (QHD), takes advantage of the natural properties of quartz, a mineral found in many rocks. Whenever a rock containing quartz is cut or polished, as in the famous Lion head, Calf head, Man face, and Eagle wings' Heelstone Carvings, Stonehenge, the quartz at the surface is left exposed. Over time, water diffuses into the quartz, forming a layer. By measuring the layer, how long ago the rock was cut is determined. The technique can be used to date stone carvings that were created between 100 and about 100,000 years ago. A paper outlining the technique is available in the current issue of the Journal of Archaeological Science, dated July 2004.

http://else.hebis.de/cgi-bin/sciserv...issue=v31i0007



REPORT ON THE EXCAVATIONS AT STONEHENGE DURING THE SEASON OF 1923
William Hawley
Antiquaries Journal. J., 5
1925
21-50

STONEHENGE
R.J.C. Atkinson
PENGUIN BOOKS
in association with Hamish Hamilton
1956
ISBN 0140136460
INDEX 221
Carvings, modern, 33-4, 46-7
prehistoric, 43-7, 91-3, 139-40,
178-9, 208-9
Heel Stone, 29-30,68-9, 70, 76,
105, 173, 203

STONEHENGE
in its landscape
Twentieth-century excavations

Rosamund M J Cleal, K E Walker, and R Montague
with major contributions by
Michael J Allen, Alex Bayliss, C Bronk Ramsey, Linda Coleman,
Julie Gardiner, P A Harding, Rupert Housley, Andrew J Lawson,
Gerry McCormac, Jacqueline I McKinley, Andrew Payne,
Robert G Scaife, Dale Serjeantson, and Geoff Wainwright
ENGLISH HERITAGE
1995
ARCHAEOLOGICAL REPORT 10
ISBN 1850746052
INDEX 603, 608
carvings, prehistoric 30-3,
Plate 7.2
Heelstone (Stone 96)
25, 26, 166, 269, 270, 271, 272

PROCEEDINGS OF THE BRITISH ACADEMY . 92
Science and Stonehenge

Edited by
BARRY CUNLIFFE & COLIN RENFREW
Published for THE BRITISH ACADEMY
by OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS
1997
ISBN 0197261744
INDEX 351, 355
carvings, prehistoric 5, 29, 35, 150, 338
distribution 150, 163, 190
Heelstone (Stone 96) 15, 16, 28, 155

HENGEWORLD
Mike Pitts
C
CENTURY . LONDON
2000
ISBN 0712679545
INDEX 402, 403
Stonehenge
carvings 8, 26, 265-6, 296-7, 27,
266
Heelstone 8, 96, 135, 139,
145-50, 154, 229, 266, 275, 7,
138, 146, 230

QUARTZ HYDRATION DATING
Jonathon E. Ericson, Oliver Dersch and Friedel Rauch
Journal of Archaeological Science
Volume 31
Issue 7
July 2004
Pages 883-902

http://www.freewebs.com/garrydenke

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Old 06-07-2004, 07:13 PM
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You Believers, you who are enchanted by the majesty of His Majesty,
learn from all the religions that came before and died long ago.
The Bible and God are separate. But God is so separate, you will never know anything about "Him" as long as you live, so separate from the world of the senses is he. Be not misled by paradoxes from false prophets. It is so very easy, is it not, to allege you believe in an indefensible, meaningless proposition, for example an "omnipotent being," whatever being is, who simply "had to start things up." Pah!
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