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Ethics and Morality What's right and what's wrong? Discuss issues on ethics, morality, and justice.

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  #106  
Old 01-23-2005, 01:58 PM
Fallen Fallen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchforkpat
"undefiled"? Well the Bible says a lot of nonsense, and if any book is degrading to women, it’s the Bible. Remember, Paul said that women shouldn’t be allowed to speak in church. If they even have a question, they are to wait till they get home and ask their husbands.

Also remember that on more than one occasion Moses ordered entire nations killed by the Israelite army but told the murdering marauders that they could keep any young virgin girls (read 12-14 at that time) alive for themselves (what do you think the soldiers would have done to them?).

While staying the night with an old man, a Levite was accosted by the men of the town who wanted to have sex with him. To save his own neck, the man threw his female slave out of the door and slammed it shut. She was raped and abused all night till she died. According to the Bible, the “Master” was the one who was wronged.

God's precious King David fled when his son Absolom was approaching with an army. He left 10 of his mistresses behind. His son then had sex with all ten of his father's mistresses in public view so as to proclaim himself king. The Bible does not condemn using women in this way, because the writers saw nothing wrong with it.
I find it funny. I always seem to have some sort of problem (something that just makes me uncomfortable) with your posts pat, and this one was no exception.

Nice emotive language used there (i.e. "murdering marauders") trying to write a persuasive essay?

Firstly, "remember, Paul said that women shouldn’t be allowed to speak in church" because they were living in a culture within which women were uneducated and had low standing. The reason that women were asked not to speak in church was because of the type of questions that they would ask, these would be readily answered by their husbands and having the teacher answer them would delay the teaching of the men. So, the women should ask their husbands who were educated in the teachings of the church at home (in private) because they would receive an answer but would not hinder the teaching.

Also, there are many examples of women leaders (Greek: diakonon, deacon, servant, or minister) such as Junia (Romans 16:7), Phoebe (Romans 16:1-2), Priscilla (Romans 16:3-5), Nymphia (Colossians 4:15) and Mary Magdalene and Martha. There are still others.

You may also like to note Ephesians 5:22-33.

And, as for the ten concubines of David, it says no where that it was right (or good) the actions that Absalom made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchforkpat
Be careful when you use biblical ideals to defend womens’ honour. The Bible is one of the most misogynistic books out there.
I reckon, pat, that you should make sure that you remember cultural context in any accusations you make about the Books of the Bible. And, "misogynistic"? The Bible states that all men and women are created equal. In Genesis, God blessed both Adam and Eve, telling them to multiply and rule over the whole earth; not just Adam (or the male).
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  #107  
Old 01-23-2005, 08:47 PM
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I definitely agree. The 'problem' with many people is that they just present their interpretations of the bible without even considering its cultural context, the authors' background, texts very much literally understood, etc. and do not even have just a little knowledge or background about hermeneutics. *sigh* whatever....
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  #108  
Old 01-23-2005, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen
I reckon, pat, that you should make sure that you remember cultural context in any accusations you make about the Books of the Bible. And, "misogynistic"? The Bible states that all men and women are created equal. In Genesis, God blessed both Adam and Eve, telling them to multiply and rule over the whole earth; not just Adam (or the male).
I think, if I may be so bold as to assume where pat was coming from, is that this all knowing God should not have been effected by the culture of a human should he?
What is right is right. What is wrong is wrong. If there is a god. If it is right to ask question then not only MEN but WOMAN should be allowed to ask question. If questions are bad, then not only MEN but WOMAN should not ask them. If this book was written by a GOD why not include a chapter about allowing woman fair access to school so as to remove the education gap between men and woman. If God made this a rule in the beginning would there have BEEN a gap?
Pat?
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  #109  
Old 01-24-2005, 12:00 AM
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This thread came up at work. Now some asked what is meant by the question. It was my understanding that the question is asking in general is porn degrading to woman. A partner of mine said he felt it meant is there any porn degrading to woman. If we state the argument is over whether or not degrading porn to woman is out there, the answer must be yes. As I think neal stated earlier that the good stuff is. However if that is the meaning of the question, there is also very degrading media out there for men.
So what was your intention behind the question? Is it what I thought you meant porn in general?
Or the more specific question of does degrading porn exists?
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  #110  
Old 01-24-2005, 01:11 AM
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Good last few posts MPDC...i may agree with pat i think, but Fallen doesnt seem to understand is that the religion of Christianty has and will want to keep the woman down below the woman...however this is my interpetation.
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  #111  
Old 01-24-2005, 06:58 AM
Fallen Fallen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPDC
What is right is right. What is wrong is wrong.
So, do you believe in absolute morals?

I'd say that porn is wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPDC
If there is a god. If it is right to ask question then not only MEN but WOMAN should be allowed to ask question. If questions are bad, then not only MEN but WOMAN should not ask them. If this book was written by a GOD why not include a chapter about allowing woman fair access to school so as to remove the education gap between men and woman. If God made this a rule in the beginning would there have BEEN a gap?
Have I been saying anything? I thought I explained why; plus, they were not told to stop asking questions, just not at church (for that culture!).

God gave us the Ten Commandments in Exodus and what happened there? We still murder, we still commit adultery, and we still worship idols; and who cares? Definitely not the majority. That argument does not stand up, you have missed the whole point of why we are in this state - because there was a gap (we sinned).
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Robert Jastrow
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  #112  
Old 01-24-2005, 07:17 AM
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Wow, that is some interesting stuff you said there, even though i think most of that is crap.
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  #113  
Old 01-24-2005, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPDC
I think, if I may be so bold as to assume where pat was coming from, is that this all knowing God should not have been effected by the culture of a human should he?
What is right is right. What is wrong is wrong. If there is a god. If it is right to ask question then not only MEN but WOMAN should be allowed to ask question. If questions are bad, then not only MEN but WOMAN should not ask them. If this book was written by a GOD why not include a chapter about allowing woman fair access to school so as to remove the education gap between men and woman. If God made this a rule in the beginning would there have BEEN a gap?
Pat?
Excellent point Todd.

One of but hundreds of example of how the Bible reflects and is limited to the cultures, mores and scientific understandings of the time period(s) in which it is written, and not the words of a ALL knowing being. Strange how God was limited to the same belief systems of that particular time period. Strange how god did not foresee that incest would one day be bad and thus declare it a sin right off the bat.....
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  #114  
Old 01-24-2005, 07:30 AM
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I think God would like the "Gag factor" series more than the "Caught from behind" series. Any opinions?
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  #115  
Old 01-24-2005, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen
So, do you believe in absolute morals?

I'd say that porn is wrong...
I say man used God to make the morals since few had the will to claim what is right and what is wrong.
I say that man has evolved and it is time for him to take the blame for what is. He must step to the plate, and no longer hide behind God. He must just stake what is right and what is wrong.
Porn is. It can be wrong for you and right for me. I say again. As long as the act is consensual, and consent is given by both parties, there is no wrong, in a sex act. (Mind you I believe 1 must be of present mind in order to give consent as well.)
Quote:
Have I been saying anything? I thought I explained why; plus, they were not told to stop asking questions, just not at church (for that culture!).
You are making a hindsight remark. Oh this is what god meant. "A woman could ask question, just not in public, since they were stupid."
Now MY point was God,. The all knowing being he is, could have foreseen such an inequality in the sexes and make a rule from the beginning to ALLOW for the woman to NOT be stupid. As such their question would allow in church. Ok?
Also I member hearing, there is no such thing as a dumb question, just an unasked one.

Quote:
God gave us the Ten Commandments in Exodus and what happened there? We still murder, we still commit adultery, and we still worship idols; and who cares? Definitely not the majority. That argument does not stand up, you have missed the whole point of why we are in this state - because there was a gap (we sinned).
We sinned?
Or a great great great relative sinned, and as such this all knowing all loving God could not let it be. 1 relative brought sin fourth on all of us. That seems awfully human of him.
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  #116  
Old 01-24-2005, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacNeal
Excellent point Todd.

One of but hundreds of example of how the Bible reflects and is limited to the cultures, mores and scientific understandings of the time period(s) in which it is written, and not the words of a ALL knowing being. Strange how God was limited to the same belief systems of that particular time period. Strange how god did not foresee that incest would one day be bad and thus declare it a sin right off the bat.....
Thank you. I must admit some of my belief stems from a conversation with you about armegaden, and a person being alolowed to submit after death. You may or may not remember that convo. Anyways it made a lot of sense to me.
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  #117  
Old 01-24-2005, 03:52 PM
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Do i see respect between MPDC and Mcneal? cool.
And i like how you said this line:

"Also I member hearing, there is no such thing as a dumb question, just an unasked one."
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  #118  
Old 01-24-2005, 09:13 PM
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Sin arises only if the person believes in something like god(s), morality, etc. Without believing such, there is no 'sin'.
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  #119  
Old 01-24-2005, 09:18 PM
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Agreed Femme.
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  #120  
Old 01-24-2005, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacNeal
Excellent point Todd.
.
I had to see that again before I told you the following.

Neal,
Feltis had a turn for the worse. they had to remove one of his legs and last I spoke, dont think he will make it. If you have their number it MAY be an idea to give his wife a call.

He is in the ICU at NOVA Fairfax.
I just got the news.
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