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  #1  
Old 03-31-2004, 08:14 PM
SpudWithKnife SpudWithKnife is offline
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God

Good title, eh?


Ok let's get down to some serious business.


Does God exist or not?

"yes" said Mr Bum

"No" says Mrs Bum

And that is the end of the story.


Isn't it funny that people who believe in God do not find God inside themselves through meditation? And yet there is no proof of any objective God! If God were objective, He would be personal and a being, and would sit on some intersteller cloud somewhere in the universe. However, despite the lack of such evidence, people still believe in God! If you ask them why they will probably give some vague answer which is unsatisfactory. Or, they will tell you that they experience God in the silence of meditation. IN which case, God is within. And if God was within, then we would ALL know it because we would all experience the space between thoughts where God IS. Since it is impossible to NOT think, i think it is highly probable and highly true that there is no such thing as God.
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  #2  
Old 03-31-2004, 08:25 PM
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Go4t Go4t is offline
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it is funny that when people say that they believe in god they really mean they worship god.
believing in something means that you think its exists not that you worship it like a lot of christpuppets here say
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  #3  
Old 03-31-2004, 08:39 PM
SpudWithKnife SpudWithKnife is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go4t
it is funny that when people say that they believe in god they really mean they worship god.
believing in something means that you think its exists not that you worship it like a lot of christpuppets here say

I like the animation, Go4t!

When people worship God, they do it out of fear. If i was God, and i knew i created another being, i would not expect that being to worship me simply because love demands no worship and is an exchange between two consenting beings.

Thinking that something exists and knowing that something exists are two different things. I would challenge anyone to claim to know God to prove it to me by asking them if God knows all about me and to give me evidence of that.

When you taste an orange, you know what it tasted like, so you have direct proof of an orange. After time passes, you cannot remember what it tasted like and it seems like a dream. Further, if you were to try to prove the taste of an orange to someone else you would never suceed. So, with God. The difference here is essential - you cannot "taste" God anyway!

Why are you saying that you believe in God because you think God exists? Doesn't that just prove that your belief is nonsense? No wait! Why don't you just admit that there is no such thing as God, and explain away worship by christians at the same time? That would be better.
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  #4  
Old 03-31-2004, 08:52 PM
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Go4t Go4t is offline
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wow i just read what i said earlier and it doesnt make much sense
that was pretty much what i meant
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  #5  
Old 04-01-2004, 12:18 AM
Asar'el Asar'el is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
When people worship God, they do it out of fear.
You really do not know, or understand, Christians. I worship God out of love, not fear. Because God deserves it, not because He expects it, or asks or demands it.

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
If i was God, and i knew i created another being, i would not expect that being to worship me simply because love demands no worship and is an exchange between two consenting beings.
You probably have NO idea how relieved I am that you are NOT God

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
Thinking that something exists and knowing that something exists are two different things. I would challenge anyone to claim to know God to prove it to me by asking them if God knows all about me and to give me evidence of that.
Actually, 'knowing' is a matter of belief, a matter of trust, of acceptance. And it is relevant only to self.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
When you taste an orange, you know what it tasted like, so you have direct proof of an orange. After time passes, you cannot remember what it tasted like and it seems like a dream. Further, if you were to try to prove the taste of an orange to someone else you would never suceed. So, with God. The difference here is essential - you cannot "taste" God anyway!

Why are you saying that you believe in God because you think God exists? Doesn't that just prove that your belief is nonsense? No wait! Why don't you just admit that there is no such thing as God, and explain away worship by christians at the same time? That would be better.
What nonsense is this ? Just because I cannot prove the taste of an orange to someone else does not invalidate the fact that I have tasted an orange; and if I tell someone else that I have, it is up to them wether they believe what I say. Maybe they have tasted an orange before; maybe not; maybe their experience of it was the same as mine, maybe not. If I say "I have tasted an orange" to someone, how idiotic would it be for them to say 'Why don't you just admit there is no such thing as an orange?" ... think before you answer that.
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  #6  
Old 04-01-2004, 01:03 AM
Fallen Fallen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
Thinking that something exists and knowing that something exists are two different things. I would challenge anyone to claim to know God to prove it to me by asking them if God knows all about me and to give me evidence of that.
Spud, to truly know something you must first have a belief about it. If you do not have a belief about something then you cannot claim to have knowledge.
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Robert Jastrow
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  #7  
Old 04-01-2004, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
Good title, eh?


Ok let's get down to some serious business.


Does God exist or not?

"yes" said Mr Bum

"No" says Mrs Bum

And that is the end of the story.


Isn't it funny that people who believe in God do not find God inside themselves through meditation? And yet there is no proof of any objective God! If God were objective, He would be personal and a being, and would sit on some intersteller cloud somewhere in the universe. However, despite the lack of such evidence, people still believe in God! If you ask them why they will probably give some vague answer which is unsatisfactory. Or, they will tell you that they experience God in the silence of meditation. IN which case, God is within. And if God was within, then we would ALL know it because we would all experience the space between thoughts where God IS. Since it is impossible to NOT think, i think it is highly probable and highly true that there is no such thing as God.


It is very possible not to think. And in fact a noisy chaotic mind is the abnormal, not the normal. Before you knew the English language (or any language) how did you think? What language did you use? Attachment to thoughts is a conditioning, a development. The mind is otherwise still and silent.
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  #8  
Old 04-01-2004, 04:22 AM
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Amergain Amergain is offline
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What is the definition of "god".

What exactly is God? How can we argue about the existence of God if none of us can define that about which we are debating? Most think of the humanoid Christian God, personal and a specific living being of some kind. But is that justified?

There are several different quasi-definitions of God. The classical type of is the anthropomorphic god. This God usually has a human personality with human emotions, human virtues, and human vices. These qualities are manifested by jealousy, anger, rage, love and hate, compassion and indifference, capriciousness, justice and injustice, narcissism and insecurity (need for adoration as assurance of his supremacy), and forgiveness along with vindictiveness. In other words he behaves just like us. Yet He is also omnipotent, omniscient, and the creator of all reality. This anthropomorphic god can range from the minimal anthropomorphism of Monotheistic Allah to the markedly human raging of Monotheistic JHWH. It can include the biologically human Jesus Christ. Christ is also a God-human hybrid in a Trinity that believers like to call Monotheism. But that is arguable.

There are relatively undefined or poorly defined gods such as the one recognised by Deists, Unitarians, and Bahai’s. This god is conscious but clearly not human. He, She, or It may or may not have emotions. That is not defined. He/She/It has but one function. That function is to create the universe and the rules by which it runs.

Then there is the totally undefined God, not of a particular religious school of thought. People say they believe in a god-creator but say that nothing can be known about this god. They often express it as “something higher.”

Another kind of god, believed by many American and British scientists, possibly to avert the charge of (and job jeopardy of being) Atheist. This is the Inanimate God. This god is defined, as perhaps Steven Hawking might say, the elementary forces of nature and the unified field theory of all physics. This god is not a conscious being. It has no personality. It is incapable of thinking (cognition). It knows nothing. But its action results in the formation of a universe, or a series of successive universes. Each universe begins with a big bang. Then it expands from a tiny singularity. The super hot energy cools and condenses into the subatomic particles, and later true atoms of Hydrogen. Atoms fuse to form larger atoms, each of which has unique natural properties. They are the elements. Elemental atoms bond to other atoms to form molecules, each of which has its own unique properties. Science’s idea of a creator (metaphor) is the Big Bang and all of the properties of energy and matter.

Those innate properties account for the evolution of matter from energy and nanoparticles, and the evolution of life from atoms combining into a series of increasingly complex molecules. Life evolves through stages of mobility, which requires some self-awareness and reactivity. More complex life evolves to cognition and intelligence. Intelligence is merely an animal behaviour evolved over many stages for adaptation. This adaptation includes finding food, finding reproductive mates, and avoiding predators. Consciousness, thinking, and intelligence are not necessary for a creator god. A cosmic creative force needs no food, needs no reproductive mates, and needs no fear of predators. We know of no Theophages or God-eaters. A Cosmic creator-god no more needs intelligence than a sponge needs a computer keyboard.

This then gets us to the question facing Atheists. In countries like the USA where Atheists are unpopular, would they be better off claiming to be “inanimate Creator theists”? When asked to elaborate on God, they could reply with a Hawking style definition. They would then be eligible to join the Boy Scouts of America. Atheists account for(10%) of American war veterans. By being Hawking Natural Force theists they could join the Veterans of Foreign Wars now denied to them. They fought and died for their country and are not honoured because of unbelief. Meanwhile George Bush and Republican Christian Fundamentalists evaded Vietnam. Some by loop holes like rectal cysts (Rush Limbaugh) and others by “flat feet” avoided serving their country. George Bush got assigned a non-deployed guard unit from which he deserted. But there is more criticism of an Atheist who is a wounded war veteran. I don’t understand this.


Amergain
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  #9  
Old 04-01-2004, 09:32 AM
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Full_Moon Full_Moon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
Good title, eh?


Ok let's get down to some serious business.


Does God exist or not?

"yes" said Mr Bum

"No" says Mrs Bum

And that is the end of the story.


Isn't it funny that people who believe in God do not find God inside themselves through meditation? And yet there is no proof of any objective God! If God were objective, He would be personal and a being, and would sit on some intersteller cloud somewhere in the universe. However, despite the lack of such evidence, people still believe in God! If you ask them why they will probably give some vague answer which is unsatisfactory. Or, they will tell you that they experience God in the silence of meditation. IN which case, God is within. And if God was within, then we would ALL know it because we would all experience the space between thoughts where God IS. Since it is impossible to NOT think, i think it is highly probable and highly true that there is no such thing as God.
I'm not going to delve into this quite now, there are endless people such as yourself, we need huge billboards or something to eliminate such misunderstandings... But know this: On a technical/ literal note, I first became aware of the reality of God revealed to me through meditation. So right off the bad there goes your "noone" theory. I have not fully realized God but meditation/ prayer is my primary/ most important practice in worship. When others around me mediate on themselves or emptyness, I meditate on God lol. (tricky huh?) All throughout my day I try to be constantly mindful and meditate on God. Wisdom is proven right by her actions...
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  #10  
Old 04-01-2004, 10:08 AM
SpudWithKnife SpudWithKnife is offline
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Full Moon, it would be interesting if you could tell me what the purpose of meditation was? As i understand it, it is to achieve a state where there is no thought so that Being, God, Love, Life itself etc etc can be experienced. However, is it possible to not think?

On another issue, presumably your experience of God is accompanied by perception of supra-ordinary things? Like Chakras? Like a divine eye? Like inner light or inner sounds?
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  #11  
Old 04-01-2004, 12:05 PM
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Symptom777 Symptom777 is offline
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Sensory deprivation

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
Full Moon, it would be interesting if you could tell me what the purpose of meditation was? As i understand it, it is to achieve a state where there is no thought so that Being, God, Love, Life itself etc etc can be experienced. However, is it possible to not think?

On another issue, presumably your experience of God is accompanied by perception of supra-ordinary things? Like Chakras? Like a divine eye? Like inner light or inner sounds?
Meditation is one of many methods of imposing sensory deprivation (SD). This is a very popular device for witnessing "spiritual" phenomena. Notice that phenomena witnessed whilst under SD tend to reflect background or cultural beliefs of the subject. This can be avoided, and a directed outcome of SD achieved by indoctrination beforehand. Often this is done over a long period of time, but this can be shortened dramatically by inducing partial SD during the indoctrination programme. eg fasting, celibacy, tee-totalism, no smoking.

Under such circumstance, it is possible to continue thinking, but be subject to non-sensory inputs leading to confusion and thus the crfeation of false beliefs.
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Old 04-01-2004, 01:00 PM
SpudWithKnife SpudWithKnife is offline
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777, this only seems to complicate matters. And what other methods of sensory deprivation are there besides meditation?

It would seem to me that "spiritual" phenomena occuring as a result of SD are genuine otherwise there would be perceptions of these things for every person when they went to sleep each night. Since this doesn't appear to be the case, and since intuitive states accompany SD i think it is reasonable to conclude that they are genuine experiences of spiritual realities. There are signposts along the way that can be used to determine a state of spiritual consciousness that have objective value. WHat does that have to do with religious beliefs? If those beliefs help a person to achieve these objective states of consciousness then i see no problem with them. They offer proof of their reality. God cannot be percieved as something impersonal until a high state of consciousness is reached. So how else would God appear to his devotees besides in a form that is dear to their heart? And what is wrong with those forms? They may mean nothing to you but to the person they are dear to they mean a lot and are a source of communication between God and man.
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  #13  
Old 04-01-2004, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
777, this only seems to complicate matters. And what other methods of sensory deprivation are there besides meditation?
Solitary confinement in darkened, sound proofed chambers, whilst in a straight jacket. Used by many people for various reasons down the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
It would seem to me that "spiritual" phenomena occuring as a result of SD are genuine otherwise there would be perceptions of these things for every person when they went to sleep each night. Since this doesn't appear to be the case, and since intuitive states accompany SD i think it is reasonable to conclude that they are genuine experiences of spiritual realities.
Naive. Try squeezing your eyes tightly closed for a few minutes, then open them, what do you see? Everyone sees this. Are they real? manifestations of anything? Yes - manifestations of lack of sensory input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
There are signposts along the way that can be used to determine a state of spiritual consciousness that have objective value. WHat does that have to do with religious beliefs? If those beliefs help a person to achieve these objective states of consciousness then i see no problem with them. They offer proof of their reality.
they offer proof of irreality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
God cannot be percieved as something impersonal until a high state of consciousness is reached. So how else would God appear to his devotees besides in a form that is dear to their heart?
In a true form. This is non-sensical, it states that any belief held by any person must be true. Who accepts this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpudWithKnife
And what is wrong with those forms? They may mean nothing to you but to the person they are dear to they mean a lot and are a source of communication between God and man.
They are false and ultimately undermine that persons objectivity and ability to survive.
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  #14  
Old 04-01-2004, 03:26 PM
Numberoneson Numberoneson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asar'el
You really do not know, or understand, Christians. I worship God out of love, not fear. Because God deserves it, not because He expects it, or asks or demands it.

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
If God doesn't expect it or ask for it or demand it, then why is it a commandment?

Such statements are one reason I find Christians difficult to
understand.
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  #15  
Old 04-01-2004, 03:30 PM
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imperative reading

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numberoneson
If God doesn't expect it or ask for it or demand it, then why is it a commandment?

Such statements are one reason I find Christians difficult to
understand.
Almost good.

But I think "commandments" are a mistranslation, or have wrong meaning. Thee are ideals that yous hould live up to if you want to worship god; you don't have to do this, but then you aren't a worshipper, are you.
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