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Old 01-24-2009, 07:11 AM
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Philosophy of God.

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Originally Posted by Windrose
I agreed with Michel here - there is no need to be God. But I am very interested in your theory of God, Ben. I've heard something before, but I would like you to explain... what do you mean saying that we are God, and... oh... how to say it... why we are God, not just human beings... in other words - what 'God' means for you?
In the beginning of life on earth there were single cells floating in the ocean absorbing minerals, these single cells are our ancestors as per the theory of evolution in which I believe, from these single cells (via evolution) did the whole complex biosphere come to be as we know it now.

During some deep thought and utilising deductive reasoning I asked myself my final fundamental question as regards to 'why survive? or 'what is the will to survive?' which came from such questions as 'who am I?', 'who are we?' and 'what is life?'.

So - What is the 'will' to survive? Why is a painful, miserable life more desirable than nothingness? The reasonable answer is that it is not but the truth is that we purposely choose to live despite pain and suffering, every creature does - so I determined that there was a code to survive inherent within our psyche. Many times people desire to die but when it comes to the actuality of snuffing out your own existence the code to survive kicks in and it becomes positively difficult in the extreme (no other life form seems to be able to choose to die - it doesn't factor, they fight to live unto death) - now this seriously intrigued me.

The code to survive, when placed against evolution, makes sense - if we could easily choose to die then life on earth would be at risk in general - so I became comfortable with it. But the code to survive comes with other additions as well, the code is actually 'The will to survive, procreate, evolve and expand our territory'. This extended code is observable in every facet of life on earth from mice to men, virus to elephant and moss to fern. It is an obvious inherent code imbued within every life-form and their behaviours from the very beginning of life on earth - from the single cells to the complexities of nation state social systems.

So the question remained - 'What is the code to survive, procreate, evolve and expand our territory' to which every living entity is observably conditioned to? I can say why it was there - to ensure life on earth continued and evolved to more complex organisms - but where did it come from?

Bad question for an atheist to answer, I was a strong atheist at that time, but damn I tried - could I answer it? No chance, it was never satisfactory and always landed me back to square one, the original code and why it was there.

So I tried an experiment - I allowed myself to imagine that God were real (an ability I had honed from being an argumentative soul - the desire to debate issues sometimes forced me to take a position I didn't agree with so I could exercise my wit for fun) and then I reapplied the question as if I believed God were real. Whoa! It made sense, I ran it differently again and again it made sense - freaky but still not enough so I applied every type of question I could conjure and ran it backwards through time and evolution and it still made sense. Every time I ran the reality of God with the code It came out reasonable but there was a difference - I did it without any preconception of what God was, I let the idea of spirit roll without presupposing it was anything like the God's from mythology/religion.

So it begs the question - What is God to me?

God for me turned out to be the animator within the flesh - not the flesh itself but the metaphysical entity which existed within the bio-mechanical physical entity, an intuitive energy which seems to purposely manipulate evolutionary processes to produce progressive mutative events to enhance its physical body generation-ally - God was the intuitive energy which identified failings or desires and bio-engineered mutative enhancements specific and adaptive to the environment in which it found itself.

The will to survive was placed there by the intuitive energy which scientifically and internally manipulated the physiology of its host flesh generation-ally to enable it to exist in balance with its environment and adapt as per requirement due to the ever changing conditions - whether they be climate, geological or predator/prey scenarios.

This methodology fits with evolution, spirituality and any/every aspect of living - it explains the symbiosis of ecosystems, the symbiosis of unrelated living entities and the evolution from simple to complex.

God - my version - exists in every living entity on the planet and lives via the code of survive, procreate, evolve and expand the territory it possesses, my version of God does not exist in rock, sky of water unless inhabiting a living organism.

So - the next part is if we are all descended from the original cells, we all hold that common ancestor, then that essentially means that we are all imbued with the one soul but that one soul now inhabits all living entities on earth - that one soul is the original intuitive entity which imbued the original single cells and now exists within the entire biosphere which grimly clings to life on earth despite all cataclysms and catastrophes via the process of anti entropic means - called evolution via birth and death - and via the code of survive, procreate, evolve and extend territory.

When I have any living entity within my attention I perceive it as one part of a greater whole which I am also one part, all living have become to me myself - I am connected spiritually to all living via the soul of God which we all are.

When we fight a war we are living via the code of survival, we are extending or defending our territory, our mate, our right to ideologically or technologically evolve. When we work together we are doing the same through cooperative means. Interesting how altruism is physiologically rewarded with dopamine and selfishness is rewarded with stress and guilt - my theory on this is we are supposed to work together.

Ultimately you can run this theory against any historical or modern day advancement and determine the code in action - God put the code there to ensure we survive to now and into the future - we are now extending our territory to outer space, we are evolving our environment to incorporate our needs to survive under increasing population pressures, we are reducing out pollution to ensure future survival etc etc. God is a scientist, God is the janitor too but God is not the volcano nor the storm - we are God, God works through us and we can connect with out true God self via allowing it be possible to you - you let go of control of self and allow the inner spirit to have free reign. This does not mean you disappear but it does mean your ego self disappears, you essentially stop trying to control every action and trust your soul to automatically run the machine you exist in, whether that is to remember where you left your keys or to kick the ball where you want it to go or to formulate a sentence without pre-thinking it.

I am God, you and everyone you know is God - your dog is God and so is the fungus on your second cousins toes. God is the soul of the biosphere which exists within the bio-mechanical shells roaming the earths surface - every single entity is one individual and at the same time the entire biosphere entity - we are connected to each other and we can feel it all the time via our interconnected relationships with each other and our animals and plants. You can't tell me you don't feel connected to your social groups, families and pets, you don't feel connected to the forest when you walk through it or the garden you grew and tended. You are one with all living and we feel it everyday and draw energy from it.

This is my theory of God and how it exists - there is plenty more if you wish me to answer questions Windrose - feel free as it is not an imposition. I share in honesty because I believe by doing so I help the God of the biosphere to continue to exist and improve its chances of existing into the future.
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Old 01-24-2009, 06:18 PM
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What you call 'God', I would name a 'mystery of life'. Of course it does not matter how it is called, but I used to think that God is an omnipotent being that is far above us… Why do we need God? There is only one reason for it: we need a protector. We need someone to take care of us. Because we hate feeling unprotected. And also we need to explain things we can't understand. So when it's out of understanding, we say: it's a mystery of God and don't think further about it. Your God seems to be a certain 'common' spirit, inhabiting all of us, imho, it does not have any characteristics God (as I see it) must have. And it is not a kind of collective organism, it's a spirit, or maybe a force/energy/whatever else inhabiting all living beings on Earth. In other words, it is something that makes matter alive. We don’t know what it is, so we call it 'God'. Is it what you mean, Ben, or I got it wrong way? Your theory sounds logical, but the question still remains: why do you call it 'God', not 'life force' or something else?
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Old 01-24-2009, 06:26 PM
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Another recruit Ben? nice to see more people wanting to understand this belief

What are your thoughts on hylozoism though? Do seemingly non living things like rocks make up a part of God as well?
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Old 01-24-2009, 06:35 PM
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Call it what you want to I suppose. My counter question would be this... What is life? Giving God the credit for creating life alone seems rather limiting, don't you think? He should get credit for the non living as well.
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Old 01-25-2009, 12:19 AM
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Thankyou for your interset Windrose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindRose View Post
What you call 'God', I would name a 'mystery of life'. Of course it does not matter how it is called, but I used to think that God is an omnipotent being that is far above us… Why do we need God?
I have been in trouble many times for claiming my theoretical version (which I believe) as God when there is such a dearth of people who already accept the common understanding of what God is (omnipotent and omniscient). My answer to this is people throughout history have been delving intellectually into determining what God is and have always looked without themselves when in reality it is within, they still do this as Christians despite 'Jesus' stating it is unnecessary to go to temple for the worship of God due to the idea that your body is your temple and God is within you.

I believe that what has been declared as God is flawed and the reality of that which people have been feeling, experiencing and observing for all of human existence is the within version, I call it God because in this way the concept remains inclusive of all believers.

Quote:
There is only one reason for it: we need a protector. We need someone to take care of us. Because we hate feeling unprotected. And also we need to explain things we can't understand. So when it's out of understanding, we say: it's a mystery of God and don't think further about it.
I don't buy into this style of thinking, I don't need a comforter or protector I just required an answer to the question 'what is life?' and through deductive reasoning I, perversely, discovered the reality of God as an internal intuitive energy.

This is not to say anyone is right or wrong - my version is accepted by me as my personal version, I share it only because it helped me in many ways and therefore it may help others in the same ways.

One other concept this theory highlighted to me was the concept that God is not good nor evil - God is in fact neutral. God does what God has to do to fulfil its code obligations of survival, procreation, evolution and expanding its territory so God instigates wars due to scarcity concerns and defensive concerns, God is altruistic and compassionate due to abundance and the desire to be collective to achieve more for the greater good of helping all to survive, God is the wolf pack and the antelope herd at the same time as it is the pasture and the mosquito swarm who all devour each other in their attempts to survive - God is the circle of life for survivals sake. God is true neutral in its disposition. God is the cake and eats of its self to survive and prosper - the only time this concept can actually work, ironic no?.

Quote:
Your God seems to be a certain 'common' spirit, inhabiting all of us, imho, it does not have any characteristics God (as I see it) must have.
That was my point really, the accepted version of God was rejected by me from the start because I perceived it as myth bound and unrealistic - hence I was an atheist - my version satisfied my understanding of the science of evolution and the undeniable spiritual connectivity (undeniable by me I mean) between all living - something an atheist could believe in and be comfortable.

Quote:
And it is not a kind of collective organism, it's a spirit, or maybe a force/energy/whatever else inhabiting all living beings on Earth. In other words, it is something that makes matter alive.
I believe it is both, are you a biological organism and a spirit at the same time? I think so and so, I believe, is the biosphere.

Quote:
We don’t know what it is, so we call it 'God'. Is it what you mean, Ben, or I got it wrong way? Your theory sounds logical, but the question still remains: why do you call it 'God', not 'life force' or something else?
I call it God because it is what I believe people have been referring to all this time in history as humanity and they did this because they knew naught of the theory of evolution - I joined the concepts together (science and spirituality) because I believe they have been unnecessarily diametrically opposed when in actuality they are extraordinarily aligned concepts - God is a scientist, science is the action of God - 'will' is God.

My version of God is inclusive of all concepts because i believe all concepts have been argued convincingly so they must in fact be one and the same. I found a way to join the concepts at the hip and it seems to work very well indeed - I have been unable to find a scenario where it fails as a concept so I have come to believe its plausibility and became a non-religious theist of a God concept all argue against and yet all fundamentally have serious similarities uniting them to it.
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Old 01-25-2009, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plado View Post
Another recruit Ben? nice to see more people wanting to understand this belief
LOL - No-one has converted to my concept as yet, I find that strange but somehow this has not diminished my zeal in terms of my own personal belief - in fact the more people argue what I claim the more I am able to increase the reasoning behind the concept - it gets stronger as a concept within me the more often it is fought and prevails.

Quote:
What are your thoughts on hylozoism though? Do seemingly non living things like rocks make up a part of God as well?
No - I can only be inclusive of biological matter and the soul which drives such as God, rocks and water seem to be matter which is utilised by the intuitive energy but not able to be manipulated by it as a vessel.
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Old 01-25-2009, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Plado View Post
Call it what you want to I suppose. My counter question would be this... What is life? Giving God the credit for creating life alone seems rather limiting, don't you think? He should get credit for the non living as well.
Though I understand why you would say so I have been unable to reasonably determine reason to credit God with this ability - I can only scientifically determine, via deductive reason based on observable happenings including, predominately, social symbiosis and specific mutative adaptive happenings. For example - a tree which disperses its seeds via providing them with a wing to allow the ability to float away from the host tree, an insect being attracted to a flower due to colour, smell and nectar to which the insect then unwittingly becomes the host carrier, a deer which has developed an immunity to a specific plants poison and a tongue to circumnavigate the thorns designed to detract regular attention from other browser types of animals, the phasmid which mimics and imitates 'exactly' the actions and exact look of a specific stick or leaf, an octopus which specifically mimics a sea snake to intimidate potential predators and also camouflages itself via pigmentation allotment to look exactly like the sand or rock it is existing on in that moment without the benefit of 'knowing' what it looks like with a mirror - the octopus also squirts ink to confuse, ambushes its prey and can open a jar of pickles if it feels inclined. For every biological entity on the planet there is a specific, purposeful, environmental adaptive mutative event to adjust its survival capacity to its specific geological, weather shifting and prey/predator environment. Also note the symbiotic balance and cooperation of ecosystems in general as well as the interpersonal cooperative relationships between species unrelated to each other - this dearth of symbiotic cooperative purposefully adaptive mutative biological evidence, to which I could go on ad nauseum and will if you so require it of me, suggests something deeper than what has been previously suggested by science through such accepted theories as survival of the fittest and natural selection.

God wishes to survive and has the form of an evolutionary biosphere, God (the intuitive energy within all biological shells) manipulates specifically and purposefully through mutative intelligent design. I reject intelligent design which suggests a 'poofing into existence' but have adapted intelligent design to be a gradual purposeful environmentally adaptive event.

To me God is awesome and powerful but just not in the unrealistic way as pertains to the religious myth postulations.
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Old 01-25-2009, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Burkhill View Post
I don't buy into this style of thinking, I don't need a comforter or protector I just required an answer to the question 'what is life?' and through deductive reasoning I, perversely, discovered the reality of God as an internal intuitive energy.
Let us assume there is no God at all. But there is something people don't understand. For instance, I can't understand why and how life is. And I think: let everything I can't explain be 'God'. So God appears in attempt to explain inexplicable.
Quote:
something an atheist could believe in and be comfortable.
Why do people believe in God? Because they need to have a belief itself, it is human mind's nature. We (most of us) need to know there is someone/something above us to help us, save us, protect us, give us an advice etc, etc – a kind of a wise omnipotent 'father' to make us not feel lonely in this horrible world. It is normal, and understandable; I would say there is no chance for humankind to have no God. Even if God exists only in our imagination.
Quote:
I have been in trouble many times for claiming my theoretical version (which I believe) as God when there is such a dearth of people who already accept the common understanding of what God is (omnipotent and omniscient). My answer to this is people throughout history have been delving intellectually into determining what God is and have always looked without themselves when in reality it is within, they still do this as Christians despite 'Jesus' stating it is unnecessary to go to temple for the worship of God due to the idea that your body is your temple and God is within you.
I think there is nothing wrong with you concept of God because, imho, you took the actual state of affairs and named 'God' its inexplicable part.
But I have one more question: if we are God, and we (God) help people (us) to survive etc, it means that this God lives for itself, it is an organism which takes care of itself only, so the sentence 'God takes care of me' equals 'I take care of my own kidneys' because all of us are part of God. God can not survive without us like we can not survive without our inner organs, so God needs us as much as we need God. Is it a real God then?
Quote:
God is altruistic and compassionate due to abundance and the desire to be collective to achieve more for the greater good of helping all to survive, God is the wolf pack and the antelope herd at the same time as it is the pasture and the mosquito swarm who all devour each other in their attempts to survive - God is the circle of life for survivals sake.
Good point. But again: all God does is for itself, no? To me it sounds like if my stomach could think, it would call me 'God'.
Quote:
This is not to say anyone is right or wrong - my version is accepted by me as my personal version, I share it only because it helped me in many ways and therefore it may help others in the same ways.
Ben, I want you to know that I am questioning you not to express a doubt about your theory – not a bit. I just want to understand it for myself because I found it interesting and unusual.

You said it helped you in many ways. Can you explain this? Provide an example? If I may ask you for this…
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Old 01-25-2009, 03:52 PM
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Ben your theory is amazing but so limiting! You seem to be limiting yourself. Think about the bigger God. The one that created it all, not just life as it seems. I've learned that it's pointless to get a picture of god because he is made of everything we believe to know and more. For god to be god as I believe, he/she/it/whatever can't be seperated from anything in existance. That's my thought.

If God is cause for allowing seeds to float in the wind, then introduced the wind? Your God seems to exist dependantly on these non living properties. So who caused your God's existance? The God who existed these non living properties?
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Old 01-26-2009, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindRose View Post
Let us assume there is no God at all. But there is something people don't understand. For instance, I can't understand why and how life is. And I think: let everything I can't explain be 'God'. So God appears in attempt to explain inexplicable.
They call this 'God of gaps theory'. I just like to know, why is my favourite question and the pursuit of why is my favourite past-time, at school I was only interested in math when they provided me with problems to solve - I got 100% when this happened but was bored shit-less with the rest.

Quote:
Why do people believe in God? Because they need to have a belief itself, it is human mind's nature. We (most of us) need to know there is someone/something above us to help us, save us, protect us, give us an advice etc, etc – a kind of a wise omnipotent 'father' to make us not feel lonely in this horrible world. It is normal, and understandable; I would say there is no chance for humankind to have no God. Even if God exists only in our imagination.
Whilst I agree with your summation for the majority I myself have no need of such. I prefer to to have the philosophy that it is up to us and we wear the consequences of our own actions. Us being God forces responsibility - I am well satisfied with that.

Quote:
I think there is nothing wrong with you concept of God because, imho, you took the actual state of affairs and named 'God' its inexplicable part.
I agree but with the addendum of the attempt to make God explicable.

Quote:
But I have one more question: if we are God, and we (God) help people (us) to survive etc, it means that this God lives for itself, it is an organism which takes care of itself only, so the sentence 'God takes care of me' equals 'I take care of my own kidneys' because all of us are part of God. God can not survive without us like we can not survive without our inner organs, so God needs us as much as we need God. Is it a real God then?
Good analogy - I call it God purely because it is what has been felt and understood to be God in the past, it is what I believe people have been referring to when they talk of God in reality in relation to 'personal experience' of God as opposed to the ideological understanding of God.

This is a very good question - kudos to you for that.

God is not a God - God (the biosphere entity) is just another biological spiritually driven entity trying to survive in the hostile universe like we do, God is driven by the code of survive, procreate, evolve and expand your territory like all other living entities. My question then becomes why is God imbued with the code?

I postulate we were seeded here, we terraformed the planet and evolved into what we are - why? Who the f..k knows. It leads me to conclude that there are plenty more such entities out there (let's face it - the universe is inconceivable in size and if we are here it is not unreasonable to suspect other such incidences) just like ours in form but who knows which evolutionary paths these other entities took.

So - this is the theory for my book, biosphere wars. In the future our biosphere - through space exploration with the intent to 'expand its territory to increase its chances of survival' - has an encounter with another biosphere entity which also behaves congruent with the code of survival. It will be like one nation discovering another and the cultural problems shall at once unite our world into one being but conversely their world will do the same - we will fight for strategic positioning and resources. This will continue to happen with circumstances like the Spanish meeting the Inca nation and the English defeating the American Indian nations - but eventually we will meet our equal or superior and then shall be our trial to survive in the universe. Humans are aggressive - I have no reason to believe the alien cultures will be any more evolved than us if they exist by the code of survival as we do.

Quote:
Good point. But again: all God does is for itself, no? To me it sounds like if my stomach could think, it would call me 'God'.
Exactly - you are a clever person indeed. Would your stomach be wrong?

Quote:
Ben, I want you to know that I am questioning you not to express a doubt about your theory – not a bit. I just want to understand it for myself because I found it interesting and unusual.
It's cool - I know who you are and know your inquiry for what it is.

Quote:
You said it helped you in many ways. Can you explain this? Provide an example? If I may ask you for this…
It allowed me to see the reality of life - what is..is.

I was no longer confused by interpersonal relationships and the social matrix, I knew what the world was in reality - the natural world is the real world and the social matrix is just a human management system designed to cope with population pressures. No longer did the social matrix have the power to make me feel less then what I truly was. You are not your job, you are not your money pile, you are not your toys - you are a free spirited biological organism existing in a miraculous circumstance with the gift of an improbable life, life experienced for real in this way is totally unencumbering.

I was able to let go of caring for what others thought of me because it diminished my ego enormously.

I was no longer Ben but a cell of a greater being - I became selfless, I was not important in the greater scheme of things so my altruism increased exponentially (helping others allows for a greater chance of survival for the greater being - we are all one after all) and if you have ever applied altruism then you know of the satisfaction and physiological/psychological rewards that altruism brings - there is much joy and contentedness here.

I stopped lying.

I judiciously told the truth about myself and too others - I no longer feared the consequences of social retribution - lying to save face is such an unnecessary burden and so freaking heavy to bear.

I felt connected to all living as though it were me and could draw energy from any circumstance where the living were present.

To feel this sort of connection is beyond description really.

It reduced fear to nought and allowed me not to try to conform to others expectations of me but allowed me to walk to the beat of my own drum.

I became free, my soul broke the ego mask and was allowed to be permanently emanating from me, my soul looks at you unadorned and you can feel my soul, I'm always right there - this honesty of being brings trust, love and friendship where-ever you go and that is a never ending reward in itself.

It built compassion and empathy to extreme but stable levels.

Because I was free of my own self desires and fears I was able to feel others pain and love, fear and despair, joy and happiness without tainting it with my own feelings. When it was bad for them I helped them to relieve their anxiety, when it was good for them I celebrated their joy openly - they knew I 'knew' how they felt so the spiritual bonds between all I encountered increased. Empathy kicks ass.

I chose good over evil.

Because I recognised the biosphere entity to be me (and I it) then it was easy to recognise that its goal was to survive so I would help it do so - good is the only result of this realisation - to help is to do good. The added benefit was I was able to forgive past evils because I knew the history of life on earth and of the code of survival - the code of survival has us do things we are not always proud of in our histories, forgiveness from self and then the love for self built upon good actions performed by self is beyond description as well - a very powerful and personally rewarding state of being.

One last thing though - selfless is dangerous to your personal health, you must learn to care for yourself as well, you must re-establish part of the selfish after you attune yourself to selfless.
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Old 01-26-2009, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Plado View Post
Ben your theory is amazing but so limiting! You seem to be limiting yourself. Think about the bigger God. The one that created it all, not just life as it seems. I've learned that it's pointless to get a picture of god because he is made of everything we believe to know and more. For god to be god as I believe, he/she/it/whatever can't be seperated from anything in existance. That's my thought.

If God is cause for allowing seeds to float in the wind, then introduced the wind? Your God seems to exist dependantly on these non living properties. So who caused your God's existance? The God who existed these non living properties?
I purposely restricted myself to that which I could observe and explain through deductive reasoning - the only thing I could determine as a realistic possiblity was that which I describe here. I get that we are all star matter but I can't reasonably extend my postulations beyond what appears explainable with scientific examination. You have to remember that I was a strong atheist and as such all theories speculating beyond observable occurances are just speculative theorising to me - my theory, as it stands, is believable via my criteria.
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:26 AM
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Windrose, this idea from Ben is not all that new or different. In fact many Native American groups follow very similar religious/spiritual view points.
Just look at the Anishinaabe traditional beliefs of the Ojibwa/Chippewa tribes. At least they try to cover ALL things in the universe with a god or spirit.

Personally the whole thing about finding out "why" is just a comfort way to make one self feel good.

I for one do not think there is no spirit or god or "thing" that binds us or is part of us.
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Old 01-26-2009, 04:15 AM
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Anishinaabe traditional beliefs of the Ojibwa/Chippewa tribes

Very interesting Dragon - thanks for the suggestion - I'll google it now.

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I for one do not think there is no spirit or god or "thing" that binds us or is part of us.
LOL - Freudian slip?

Last edited by Ben Burkhill; 01-26-2009 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 01-26-2009, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Burkhill View Post
Anishinaabe traditional beliefs of the Ojibwa/Chippewa tribes

Very interesting Dragon - thanks for the suggestion - I'll google it now.
No problem. My fathers mother was part of the Ojubwa tribal family and learned alot from family and friends who are part of the tribal system still. I have great respect for them, just do not agree with their spiritual views.



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LOL - Freudian slip?
How so?
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Old 01-26-2009, 05:12 AM
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Ben Burkhill Ben Burkhill is offline
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"I for one do not think there is no spirit or god or "thing" that binds us or is part of us."

Which means you actually think there is one.

I haven't be able to determine any information yet on these tribal belief systems, being attached to this and somewhat learned on this I am hoping you will be able to supply me with something more substantial - like a link or something - if you could be bothered of course.
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