FrostCloud Forums  

Go Back   FrostCloud Forums > Philosophy > Religion

Greetings!

Religion Discussions on religions, mysticism, and spirituality as well as opposing views such as agnosticism and atheism.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-24-2007, 08:59 PM
Transcendance Transcendance is offline
Advanced
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 76
Is religeon a choice?

If religeon IS a choice wouldn't that mean you could choose not to beleive? In so doing, doesn't that mean you are choosing whether god exists. To do that would only further serve to distance you from beleif. I want to beleive there is a life after death but I can't honestly say I believe. I can't but I want to. I can desire it all I want. If I'm incapable, it would be insulting to patronise religeous people in an attempt to beleive. It isn't just a switch that you turn off and on. Sometimes you can get bumped on the head or see something that flips your world upside-down. The same is true the other way. It's not a choice for religeous people to just stop beleiving or they would be acting to placate the athiests and be in denial. It's like thinking being gay is a choice. If you were straight, why the hell would you choose to be a synchophant? It makes no sense to me how insensitive some people are about this issue. Some have made their stance quite clear without possibly considering human compassion and what faith is in general.
__________________
Rehab is for quitters
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 08-24-2007, 09:22 PM
*Yawn*...God?'s Avatar
*Yawn*...God? *Yawn*...God? is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rua: Cons. Cunha e Sousa n:12
Posts: 8,344
Is religion a choice?

First off, we must understand what "choice" means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Any freaking dictionary (hint hint)
choice --
–noun 1. an act or instance of choosing; selection
This would mean that there must be options available in order for something to be a choice.

If everyone believes in God and all evidence points to the existance of God, it's only natural for you to believe in God. If some people believe in God and no evidence points to the existance of God, if you believe in God, it's your choice.

E-Z mode.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-24-2007, 09:26 PM
Transcendance Transcendance is offline
Advanced
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 76
I can't just beleive in god one day because I choose to. I can delude myself into pretending I do but without the actual change in beleif (probably brought on by some shocking event...). In order to beleive you can't be pretending.
__________________
Rehab is for quitters
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-24-2007, 09:28 PM
*Yawn*...God?'s Avatar
*Yawn*...God? *Yawn*...God? is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rua: Cons. Cunha e Sousa n:12
Posts: 8,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transcendance
I can't just beleive in god one day because I choose to. I can delude myself into pretending I do but without the actual change in beleif (probably brought on by some shocking event...). In order to beleive you can't be pretending.
So you answered your own question. Congratulations!!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-24-2007, 09:33 PM
Transcendance Transcendance is offline
Advanced
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 76
But what about what it means to others so I can get an idea of where I stand relatively to them.
__________________
Rehab is for quitters
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-24-2007, 11:28 PM
Question Question is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 256
Religion is not a choice for the very young. Each religion has a capture the young ritual to guarantee as many as possible are brainwashed into believing in the parents one true and only religion.... Only the truley educated decide for themselves what religion is best for them....
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-24-2007, 11:38 PM
*Yawn*...God?'s Avatar
*Yawn*...God? *Yawn*...God? is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rua: Cons. Cunha e Sousa n:12
Posts: 8,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Question
Each religion has a capture the young ritual
Except Scientology.

Quote:
Only the truley educated decide for themselves what religion is best for them....
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-24-2007, 11:41 PM
free tibet's Avatar
free tibet free tibet is offline
Child of the Korn.
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 6,389
Send a message via MSN to free tibet
I don't believe atheism was a choice for me. I'd love nothing more than the comfort of life after death, that some mystical force out there was looking out for me. However I simply cannot. For some reason the religious cannot see this.
__________________
'Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many - they are few.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-25-2007, 03:03 AM
Mike Dubbeld Mike Dubbeld is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transcendance
If religeon IS a choice wouldn't that mean you could choose not to beleive? In so doing, doesn't that mean you are choosing whether god exists. To do that would only further serve to distance you from beleif. I want to beleive there is a life after death but I can't honestly say I believe. I can't but I want to. I can desire it all I want. If I'm incapable, it would be insulting to patronise religeous people in an attempt to beleive. It isn't just a switch that you turn off and on. Sometimes you can get bumped on the head or see something that flips your world upside-down. The same is true the other way. It's not a choice for religeous people to just stop beleiving or they would be acting to placate the athiests and be in denial. It's like thinking being gay is a choice. If you were straight, why the hell would you choose to be a synchophant? It makes no sense to me how insensitive some people are about this issue. Some have made their stance quite clear without possibly considering human compassion and what faith is in general.
This is a good post. You better knock that off or you could be demonized in this forum..... Its no good to pretend to believe. Thats a big waste of time. I think it was Augustine that pointed out God is like falling in love. You don't get to choose when it happens. When it happens you are glad but you might try a lot and get little.

In yoga they encourage you to disprove all that they say and go even further than that. You cannot learn the deeper concepts in yoga without first having attempted to disprove the simpler concepts by all means available. That's the only way to know you are not on shaky ground. But yoga is extraordinarily difficult and chances of succeeding in it are remotely small except for people that are no longer entertained by anything in the universe/people that would not feel they were missing out on something else by abiding by the austerities yoga requires. This comes about by a large number of lifetimes having many experiences in the universe so that you outgrow it much like an adult outgrows childrens toys/is no longer entertained by them. Turning inward is recognizing the fact that the world of the senses is not where Reality is but you can spend lots of lives being a Christian, Buddhist, etc until you discover the Self-God within. In any case its not real important anyway. We all wind up in the same place in the end after enough lives/experiences in the universe. I would say pretending to believe in something is mostly a waste of a life.

But there are other issues involved here as well like morality. There is no logical reason for an atheist to act morally in the absence of fear of getting caught so by declaring yourself to be an atheist and thereby implying you do not believe in an afterlife/consequences of 'sins', you are basically making a statement 'don't trust me' when you are not looking. So many people who do not believe will tell you they do believe in God so as not to be looked upon as someone morally bankrupt. It doesn't mean people who claim to believe in God are more moral. It only means they are claiming to have morality when in reality they are no more moral than an admitted atheist. I don't trust either one more than the other but don't think atheists are too smart advertising they don't believe in God/afterlife and basically telling other people - don't trust me when you are not looking. That's why when you look in any almanac you will find that theists vastly outnumber atheists.

If you attempt to explain the universe in terms of science and logic you are not going to do it. I am not a bibler (Jew/Christian/Muslim) so I don't need the absurd ideas found in that book that science has debunked. Darwin evolution is true. The universe is 13.7 billion years old. I don't see any conflict between yoga and science except on some details that I am sure will be beaten out by future technology. But science and logic are limited and so is the mind itself. Science explains how the universe works. Not how it came about or why. It cannot tell you for instance what any of the forces are, not what matter is or energy. They can only tell you how it behaves. 97% of the universe is not even made of things on the Periodic Table. F = ma. Great. Why not F = 2ma on Saturday nights? Science is very limited. DNA people say. Great. Blueprint. Too bad no one has any clue how trillions of cells are able to self-organize. That is not in the DNA and the number one question in biology today. The complexity of a single cell exceeds the intelligence of all supercomputers on the planet combined. Science has its limits. I don't want to make this too long but so does mathematics and logic.

Mike Dubbeld
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-25-2007, 04:00 AM
kyman's Avatar
kyman kyman is offline
snarf
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: limbo
Posts: 11,035
Blog Entries: 1
Content comes together through the laws of the universe, so some would say it is your karma to believe. In this case, perhaps you could say there is a choice to remain static or become universally flexible.

The medium is not a choice.
__________________
Worlds of difference between everything and nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-25-2007, 04:00 AM
Zinkovich's Avatar
Zinkovich Zinkovich is offline
Trust me, it's edible!
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: inside your heart <3
Posts: 1,423
The entire debate of belief versus non-belief in relation to certain religions/worldviews rely almost entirely on one's experience and the context in which they have interpreted them. That's why I rarely debate the topic of religion over the internet directly; such discussions are more appropriate face-to-face, where there isn't a great deal of time for the person to sugarcoat their personal reasons for belief(or lack thereof) with sophistry, and also where it happens to be more difficult for them to discuss things without mentioning the personal context in which their beliefs were founded(either directly or indirectly; when speaking "on the spot" the subconscious comes to the surface a lot more easily).

I look at myself as an example. Does my disbelief in God have anything to do with science as well as what is proven and what is disproven? No, it has to do with what experiences I have had individually, just as it is with most religious folk I have met in person. In fact, one thing I have noticed from my discussions is that none of the religious people I have met believe in <insert holy book here> because they have read it, but because they have either read it as a child or while in some important personal crossroads in their life(especially if it involves losing something important to them or finding a general lack of direction in themselves or the world around them).

As much as certain people on the internet would like to say otherwise, there is nothing universal about the sort of knowledge or experiences that lead to religion(or the lack thereof). It's something that tends to come to you and be reinterpreted by you as an individual, and that's not something that's easy to talk about when you're discussing things in a medium that allows you to present information faster than people can individually process it. It's easy to throw out one hundred claims to support your personal position(after all, there aren't many people who are willing to individually look up each claim and rebut them or look for errors in them); that's why people of all religious/political stripes on the internet tend to do it. Yet, how many people are honest about it? How many people really bring up when they lost their religion or when they were "saved" in the pretext of a debate, even though such a situation is entirely relevant and is the originator or their present position?
__________________
Side effects may include: testicular homicide, theft of luck, apocalyptic hallunicinations, and demonic possession. Please do not soak in milk as doing so will result in death.

Last edited by Zinkovich; 08-25-2007 at 04:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-25-2007, 04:21 AM
Zinkovich's Avatar
Zinkovich Zinkovich is offline
Trust me, it's edible!
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: inside your heart <3
Posts: 1,423
Okay, fuck writing college papers and then posting on the internet. Three paragraphs in under five minutes for a string of ideas that take only about two seconds to construct from memory/experience? Way to go education, for doing nothing better than making me extremely long-winded!
__________________
Side effects may include: testicular homicide, theft of luck, apocalyptic hallunicinations, and demonic possession. Please do not soak in milk as doing so will result in death.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-25-2007, 05:01 AM
kyman's Avatar
kyman kyman is offline
snarf
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: limbo
Posts: 11,035
Blog Entries: 1
Two options, get funny or start mocking people gratuitously.
__________________
Worlds of difference between everything and nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-25-2007, 06:50 AM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 22,527
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Yawn*...God?
Is religion a choice?

First off, we must understand what "choice" means.
Its should be difficult to undertake, and easy to leave. Kinda the reverse of christianity and islam. No rake - no fatwahs. Free choice.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-25-2007, 07:07 AM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 22,527
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Dubbeld

In yoga they encourage you to disprove all that they say and go even further than that. You cannot learn the deeper concepts in yoga without first having attempted to disprove the simpler concepts by all means available.
Escapism - but plausably in concert with all religions. The only thing which is not escapism is that declared by one who came closest to the core:

'THE SECRETS REMAIN' - Moses.

Hide in any circle you want, around any banyan tree you prefer, assume any yoga stance comfortable to you, chant whichever consonant and breathe slow or fast. That constant remains when you open your eyes.

All is given as a dominion for man - vindicated! - but creationism began with the second alphabet, and says go forth - look not behind as yet, for you will find naught. And no one, no scientist or philosopher can deny it. It is not a lacking in our brain power either. The separation premise has a connectivity with the source, but this is involuntary and outside the brain's wiring - it is a treshold which cannot be voluntarilly crossed. Like birth, breathing and existing - it is not a choice factor.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Free-Will aaronkp General Philosophy 122 07-22-2008 07:33 PM
Arguments why Godels incompleteness theorem is invalid nightdreamer General Philosophy 12 07-20-2008 05:52 PM
New Discovery peacegirl Off-topic 312 08-12-2007 06:55 AM
Ban on abortion OK'd in South Dakota, looking to overturn roe v.s. wade country wide ArghMonkey Politics and World Events 1014 06-21-2006 03:48 PM
Happiness, Pharmacology and Religeon? Phil Stranger Religion 2 12-15-2005 04:33 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:05 AM.



Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2008 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Hosted and Maintained by The IceStorm Network