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  #1  
Old 04-13-2008, 05:26 PM
Bertvan Bertvan is offline
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Materialism

Does free will exist? Most people who consider themselves materialists say no. Materialists argue that free will is merely an illusion created by mechanical firing of neurons in a physical brain. The possible existence of mind, volition, intelligent choice and free will are all questions that divide philosophies into materialistic or non-materialistic creeds.

Materialistic philosophies argue that reality consists of nothing more than bits of matter interacting according to deterministic laws of physics. Materialists claim that what non-materialists see as mind is nothing more than the deterministic interactions of a mechanical brain. Furthermore, many materialists argue that mind, intelligent choice, volition, purposeful creativity and free will can’t be defined. Anything that can’t be defined can be ignored.

In the past many people thought of non-materialism in a religious context. However theism is not the only alternative to materialism. Mind, intelligent choice, volition and free will can all be regarded as perfectly natural non-determinist forces of nature that interact with reality at the quantum level. Atheists should feel just as free to promote an atheist philosophy as religious people are free to promote theirs. However those religious people who assigned properties to mind that seem improbable to us modern scientifically educated were still closer to the truth than the materialists, IMHO.

Freud, Marx and Darwinism have been named as the materialistic philosophers of the Twentieth Century.

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  #2  
Old 04-14-2008, 11:17 AM
JB21 JB21 is offline
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to be non materialist is to be moving nature i guess that is where the word e motion come by that truth

than yes, be movement allow the mind of that move when he is in watching mind of moves conditions to relate it to his move nature as source of its own mind in that particular condition of the world, a mind confirmimg that movements are always in one direction as they say being positive existence of life having one main purpose, that define natural motions ends directives, the shorter moves to the greatest life

so it is the opposite of stuff nature that seek always to multiplications and expansions

that is how i guess materialists are like a point, although they would be active to kill who is more from the motion they get of what they receive as a point, just pushing it back, while the non materialist nature are at least two points or at the maximum as the shorter moves to be of the end is two, and that has nothing absolutely nothing to do with duality

the two points are your upper and lower move, one move, that is how it is a nature of giving and getting of giving to give itself lowest
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  #3  
Old 04-14-2008, 02:35 PM
Bobbo Bobbo is offline
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Originally Posted by Bertvan View Post
... Mind, intelligent choice, volition and free will can all be regarded as perfectly natural non-determinist forces of nature that interact with reality at the quantum level. ...
I'd like to see you pick one, not all four, and make your case. Especially how a "force of nature" reacts with "reality".
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Old 04-14-2008, 07:24 PM
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Does free will exist?
- I believe not , ... as far as I'm concerned , future is already written by the ONE , the only workable and only possible way for everything to be , so nothing happens accidental , ... your way of thinking in next 5 minutes is already " written " , as well as everything in next " billion years and further " ... will is just an illusion to me , ... ... in next 5 min. you're going to " do " exactly what must be done , ... if you return 5 min. into the past now , after those 5 min. , I strongly believe you'd think and act the same way as before , .... it's not just you in the question ofcourse , everything would unroll the same way as before , no matter how many times you repeat this , ... but this's just me ...
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Old 04-14-2008, 09:03 PM
JB21 JB21 is offline
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i believe as i feel what is the non written this is you and nothing else
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  #6  
Old 04-14-2008, 10:37 PM
QUEST? QUEST? is offline
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there is much arm waving, but very little realism in this thread. This argument has been worked over for centuries.
I vote for free will.but all kinds of weird arguments can be had on both sides.
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  #7  
Old 04-15-2008, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bertvan View Post
Does free will exist? Most people who consider themselves materialists say no. Materialists argue that free will is merely an illusion created by mechanical firing of neurons in a physical brain. The possible existence of mind, volition, intelligent choice and free will are all questions that divide philosophies into materialistic or non-materialistic creeds.
Firstly, thank you for giving consideration to questions that I previously asked myself.
Secondly, we each possess the power to be violent and contentious thus pay a price.
Thirdly, a constitution governs hospitality, transcends criminality in targeting of aims.
Fourthly, We are guests to a host in YHWH, to a host with his angelic host Michael.



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Originally Posted by Bertvan View Post
Materialistic philosophies argue that reality consists of nothing more than bits of matter interacting according to deterministic laws of physics. Materialists claim that what non-materialists see as mind is nothing more than the deterministic interactions of a mechanical brain. Furthermore, many materialists argue that mind, intelligent choice, volition, purposeful creativity and free will can’t be defined. Anything that can’t be defined can be ignored.
Fifthly, Faith believes “is true” or “not true” is false, apriori are all historical facts.
Sixthly, I believe undeserved kindness is allowed to exist as a first aim to target.
Seventh, Mercy is sufficient proof that GOD in heaven cares for men of goodwill.
Eighth, “The GOLDEN Principle” denotes return evil for evil to no one as wisdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bertvan View Post
In the past many people thought of non-materialism in a religious context. However theism is not the only alternative to materialism. Mind, intelligent choice, volition and free will can all be regarded as perfectly natural non-determinist forces of nature that interact with reality at the quantum level. Atheists should feel just as free to promote an atheist philosophy as religious people are free to promote theirs. However those religious people who assigned properties to mind that seem improbable to us modern scientifically educated were still closer to the truth than the materialists, IMHO.
Ninth, “Do to others as you would like them to do for you” is a universal principle.
Tenth, Like it means one plus one equals two people forming an agreement in a word.

Eleventh: Every word you use either in written or spoken form owns its spelling sound.
Twelfth: A sentence is either true or is not true and thus a false assertion to YOU.



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Freud, Marx and Darwinism have been named as the materialistic philosophers of the Twentieth Century.
Thirteenth: Because your logic is faulty and you have not studied it with care.
Fourteenth: Log of events equals your faulty memory of where you come from.


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Fifteenth: A turn of phrase is witty if it produces sounds of laughter in an audience.
Sixteenth: Authority takes for granted its power of will to force MAN into slavery.
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  #8  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by JB21
i believe as i feel what is the non written this is you and nothing else
... I'll explain better ... no , everything is " written " , ... absolutely everything happens ( Pas. and Fut. ) the same way as ... on some old ( unknown ) cassette , ... when you play it , the ' life ' begins - the start ... now , you don't know the " future " ... but the " future " is already written on that tape , ... and so there's no doubt everything would unroll just as the tape " says " , ... there're no other ' futures ' on that tape , just ONE ... just [ ONE way ] ... so , to be more precise , free will exists , yes , ... your thinking is truly your ' product ' , but effected by the [ ONE way ] , ... which says everything happens non-accidental , ...

... * existence * ' looks ' somehow , architecture and rest ... but that somehow is the only possible way it can look and that's the point ... this , our part of the * existence * looks as it must look and there simply could be no other looks for it , ...


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Originally Posted by QUEST?
I vote for free will.but all kinds of weird arguments...
... and there's nothing weird in this , really ...
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  #9  
Old 04-16-2008, 01:39 PM
JB21 JB21 is offline
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No it is not that the truth, your life is not what you do in someone creation mind or will, your life is really you created yourself of what you ve been in your eyes to see you as real than anything else around living

so it is not written anywhere, those words you say or i say are not us, those would be on the tape yes but who cares for next when you got your life that you alone look at and make for of anything you could accept to live inn

it is not written anywhere because what life creates is realities to be inn so history are realities tales but life is never a picture life is what you cant see, those moves between the lines just saying mostly happiness or positive energy that correct a sight or consider another thing as good element source for joy to your eyes

come on, how would you reduce the creator life to all those realities it would create for whatever? although you surely must know that you cant limit a sense of a truth without being from the same source ways
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Old 04-16-2008, 05:46 PM
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... first of all , I've " recieved " a very little from your text becouse it's quite disordered , ... why don't you make an effort a little - what's the rush ? ...

- You turned this story into " you and me " ... this isn't just about you and me ... it's about * existence * in global - Why it looks the way it looks ? / Why is it " here " ? / Why it functions the way it functions ? ...

- I believe that these 3 major principles have their answers in the ONE , the only possible and only workable way for everything to be - the " LAW " number 1 ... > through this you have an explanation for each individual ...

- You know that everything effects everything , ... everything is connected , one way or another , since ' all ' rests in " ONE " * existence * , ... and change - movement - time is a trigger for effecting , ... ... now , theoreticly speaking , information - data about * all * current ( freezed ) effects ( positions ) ' produced ' by the consequences , within the entire * existence * , would represent a startpoint for calculation of both , ' endless ' , future and past ... = [ a part of ONE way idea ] ...

... the question I put myself is , is [ ONE way ] ( the " tunnel " ) different in all his ' segments ' ( change looks ), or perhaps repeatable - circle ... ? ... * change in global * - does it have start / end - ( frequency ) or not ... could it be everything goes toward something we all call [ past ] - < begining > ... " tunnel " limited ? ( tunnel like a ring ) ... ... again , calculation would provide an answer to this ...

... the last part is just guessing , nothing serious ...
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:36 PM
JB21 JB21 is offline
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but you are the everything when you want to see existence like, you cannot it is forbidden to have any sight of existence if it is not you being as, and this is alive in so many men and women not you now it is clear, as this is all the creation subject about we are inn as humans, truth of existence, no calculations of any sort my bro in that

what you just said shows your devotion to pictures not existence, this one way you were trying to describe say that devotion of your positive self, but you are wrong, because the one way is for reality and reality is not existence,so many ways that existence would be of one
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  #12  
Old 04-16-2008, 06:48 PM
JB21 JB21 is offline
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why do you think there are so many different shapes that say the same of one thing? they could be infinite of those shapes this is what existence is in one


that one is the sign of one force taking advantage of what existence creates which gives a sign to understand how evil it is always and that is why one who would illiminate any other interested being to get of life creation, and that what you seem devoted to
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  #13  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:29 PM
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Nenad Nenad is offline
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... these parts I've understood ...

Quote:
but you are the everything
- I agree ( if I understood your point here ) ... * existence * as * existence * doesn't exist for itself , it doesn't " feel " itself ... within us , creatures , it's opposite ... we " feel " ourselves and * existence * around us ... so , first it was [ SELF-NONEXISTENCE = * existence * ] , now is [ YOU ON = also * existence * but with one part which can " feel " it - the mind ] ... so , in second case , and that is you ... * existence * is able to " feel " itself , to " realize " itself ... your mind realizes * existence * so it can be said that you " bring " everything to you by yourself , by your life , by being born ... - in that feelable sense ...

Quote:
you cannot it is forbidden to have any sight of existence if it is not you being as
- If I'm right , this has to do with the text said above ... The [ ONE way ] idea is a result of that feelable part of the * existence * - my mind ... = for the * existence * so there should be nothing wrong here , there is no any " could not have sight of existence " or forbiddition within this ... again , maybe I missunderstood you , it's very possible ...

Quote:
what you just said shows your devotion to pictures not existence, this one way you were trying to describe say that devotion of your positive self, but you are wrong, because the one way is for reality and reality is not existence,
- I hear you but , like I said , ... all my ideas are result of my mind - feelable part ... all produced by the effects of ' visual - hearable ' * existence * ... but , and this is important , ... you don't have a control over the * existence * , it's rather opposite , * existence * is one , one < real - reality > - all the time ... and it controls you and your ' states ' ( well , there's just one = you = alive = aware ON ... ) ...

... so , reality is not non-existence of your mind - feelable ' device ' as you say , ... or that ^ nonfeelabe ^ part of the story ... ... I'd say you're wrong ... reality is in both cases , the same one ... with or without you , ... so , I don't think [ ONE way ] has value only for one paticular side ... all possible sides are in the question ...


Quote:
that one is the sign of one force taking advantage of what existence creates
- If you mean on what I believe you mean on ... the [ ONE way for everything to be ] is something I cannot describe fully , I'm unable to ' translate ' it well from my mind ... but this is most of the idea I guess ...

... it's like * existence * itself is the [ ONE way ] ... basicaly , it is ...
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  #14  
Old 04-17-2008, 07:40 AM
JB21 JB21 is offline
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you confuse creation and creator

creator touch anything of existence when creation touch anything of itself fullfilment
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  #15  
Old 04-17-2008, 08:50 AM
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Nenad,JB21

IMHO,
I think the premise of your talking about confined in the "box",we called material world;if everything gone;nothing happened,the time defined by it self;if there is "one" you said,there is must be exist "fixed times".but the Time in front of us is created by our social behavior,is not it's ture status.
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