FrostCloud Forums  

Go Back   FrostCloud Forums > Philosophy > Religion

Greetings!

Religion Discussions on religions, mysticism, and spirituality as well as opposing views such as agnosticism and atheism.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-27-2007, 11:17 AM
Saudhoon Saudhoon is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 29
universe have a creator







While referring to the Sun and the Moon in the Qur'an, it is emphasized that each moves in a definite orbit.

"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. " (The Qur'an, 21:33)

It is mentioned in another verse, too, that the Sun is not static but moves in a definite orbit:

"And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. " (The Qur'an, 36:38)

These facts communicated in the Qur'an have been discovered by astronomical observations in our age. According to the calculations of experts on astronomy, the Sun is traveling at the enormous speed of 720,000 kilometers an hour in the direction of the star Vega in a particular orbit called the Solar Apex. This means that the sun travels roughly 17,280,000 kilometers a day. Along with the Sun, and all planets and satellites within the gravitational system of the Sun also travel the same distance. In addition, all the stars in the universe are in a similar planned motion.



Like many other comets in the universe, Halley's comet, seen above, also moves in a planned orbit. It has a specific orbit and it moves in this orbit in a perfect harmony with other celestial bodies.


That the entire universe is full of paths and orbits such as this one, is written in the Qur'an as follows:

"By the sky full of paths and orbits." (The Qur'an, 51:7)

There are about 200 billion galaxies in the universe, consisting of nearly 200 billion stars in each. Most of these stars have planets, and most of those planets have satellites. All of these heavenly bodies move in very precisely computed orbits. For millions of years, each has been "swimming" along in its own orbit in perfect harmony and order with all the others. Moreover, many comets also move along in the orbits determined for them.

The orbits in the universe do not only belong to celestial bodies. The galaxies also travel at enormous speeds in computed, planned orbits. During these movements, none of these celestial bodies cuts across another's path, or collides with another.

Surely at the time the Qur'an was revealed, mankind did not possess today's telescopes or advanced observation technologies to observe millions of kilometres of space, nor the modern knowledge of physics or astronomy. Therefore, at that time, it was not possible to determine scientifically that space is "full of paths and orbits" as stated in the verse. However, this was openly declared to us in the Qur'an that was revealed at that time:-because the Qur'an is the word of God.

visit http://www.harunyahya.com
__________________


knowledge is the dom the boss of the of great people. it was there before every one was born.
and never think a guy like you can get through a guy like it (knowledge) say what your thoughts wrong

Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 09-27-2007, 11:33 AM
Saudhoon Saudhoon is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 29
Your God is One God. There is no god but Him, the All-Merciful, the Most Merciful. (2:163)

Allah, there is no god but Him, the Living, the Self-Sustaining. He is not subject to drowsiness or sleep. Everything in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them but they cannot grasp any of His knowledge save what He wills. His Footstool encompasses the heavens and the earth and their preservation does not tire Him. He is the Most High, the Magnificent. (2:255)

Allah, there is no god but Him, the Living, the Self-Sustaining. (3:2)

It is He Who forms you in the womb however He wills. There is no god but Him, the Almighty, the All-Wise. (3:6)

Allah bears witness that there is no god but Him, as do the angels and the people of knowledge, upholding justice. There is no god but Him, the Almighty, the All-Wise. (3:18)

Allah, there is no god but Him. He will gather you to the Day of Rising about which there is no doubt. And whose speech could be truer than Allah's? (4:87)

Those who say that Allah is the third of three are disbelievers. There is no god but One God. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will afflict those among them who disbelieve. (5:73)

That is Allah, your Lord. There is no god but Him, the Creator of everything. So worship Him. He is responsible for everything. (6:102)

Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord-there is no god but Him-and turn away from the idolaters. (6:106)

Say: 'Mankind! I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, of Him to Whom the kingdom of the heavens and earth belongs. There is no god but Him. He gives life and causes to die.' So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Ummi, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him so that hopefully you will be guided.' (7:158)

They have taken their rabbis and monks as lords besides Allah, and also the Messiah, son of Maryam. Yet they were commanded to worship only one God. There is no god but Him! Glory be to Him above anything they associate with Him! (9:31)

But if they turn away, say, 'Allah is enough for me. There is no god but Him. I have put my trust in Him. He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne.' (9:129)

We brought the tribe of Israel across the sea and Pharaoh and his troops pursued them out of tyranny and enmity. Then, when he was on the point of drowning, he said, 'I believe that there is no god but Him in whom the tribe of Israel believe. I am one of the Muslims.' (10:90)

If they do not respond to you then know that it has been sent down with Allah's knowledge and that there is no god but Him. So will you not become Muslims? (11:14)

And to 'Ad We sent their brother Hud. He said, 'My people! Worship Allah. You have no god apart from Him. You are merely fabricators.' (11:50)

To Thamud We sent their brother Salih. He said, 'My people, worship Allah! You have no god apart from Him. He brought you into being from the earth and made you its inhabitants. So ask His forgiveness and then repent to Him. My Lord is Close and Quick to Respond.' (11:61)

And to Madyan their brother Shu'ayb. He said, 'My people, worship Allah! You have no god apart from Him. Do not give short measure and short weight. I see you prospering and I fear for you the punishment of an all-encompassing Day.' (11:84)

In the same way We have sent you among a nation before which other nations passed away, to recite to them what We have revealed to you. Yet they still reject the All-Merciful. Say: 'He is my Lord; there is no god but Him. I put my trust in Him and I turn to Him.' (13:30)

He sends down angels with the Spirit of His command to any of His servants He wills: 'Give warning that there is no god but Me, so have fear of Me!' (16:2)

Say: 'If there had, as you say, been other gods together with Him, they would have sought a way to the Master of the Throne.' (17:42)

Allah, there is no god but Him. The Most Beautiful Names are His. (20:8)

(A voice called out to Musa,) 'I am Allah. There is no god but Me, so worship Me and perform prayer to remember Me.' (20:14)

(Musa said,) 'Your god is Allah alone, there is no god but Him. He encompasses all things in His knowledge.' (20:98)

We sent no Messenger before you without revealing to him: 'There is no god but Me, so worship Me.' (21:25)

And Dhu'n-Nun when he left in anger and thought We would not punish him. He called out in the pitch darkness: 'There is no god but You! Glory be to You! Truly I have been one of the wrongdoers.' (21:87)

We sent Nuh to his people and he said, 'My people, worship Allah. You have no god other than Him. So will you not guard against evil?' (23:23)

And (We) sent a Messenger to them from themselves: 'Worship Allah. You have no god other than Him! So will you not guard against evil?' (23:32)

Allah has no son and there is no other god accompanying Him, for then each god would have gone off with what he created and one of them would have been exalted above the other. Glory be to Allah above what they describe. (23:91)

Exalted be Allah, the King, the Real. There is no god but Him, Lord of the Noble Throne. (23:116)

(The hoopoe said,) 'Allah-there is no god but Him-the Lord of the Mighty Throne.' (27:26)

He is Allah. There is no god but Him. Praise be to Him in this world and the hereafter. Judgement belongs to Him. You will be returned to Him. (28:70)

Do not call on any other god along with Allah. There is no god but Him. All things are passing except His Face. Judgement belongs to Him. You will be returned to Him. (28:88)

Mankind! Remember Allah's blessing to you. Is there any creator other than Allah providing for you from heaven and earth? There is no god but Him. So how have you been perverted? (35:3)

Your God is One: Lord of the heavens and the earth and everything between them; Lord of the Easts. (37:4-5)

When they were told, 'There is no god but Allah,' they were arrogant. (37:35)

Say: 'I am only a warner. There is no god except Allah, the One, the All-Conquering.' (38:65)

He created you from a single self, then produced its mate from it, and sent down livestock to you-eight kinds in pairs. He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in a threefold darkness. That is Allah, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you deviate? (39:6)

The Forgiver of wrong action, the Accepter of repentance, the Severe in retribution, the Possessor of abundance. There is no god but Him. He is the final destination. (40:3)

That is Allah, your Lord, the Creator of everything. There is no god but Him-so how have you been perverted? (40:62)

He is the Living-there is no god but Him-so call on Him, making your religion sincerely His. Praise be to Allah, the Lord of all the worlds. (40:65)

It is He Who is God in heaven and God on earth. He is the All-Wise, the All-Knowing. (43:84)

There is no god but Him-He gives life and causes to die-your Lord and the Lord of your forefathers, the previous peoples. (44:8)

Know then that there is no god except Allah and ask forgiveness for your wrongdoing, and for the men and women who believe. Allah knows both your activity and your repose. (47:19)

He is Allah-there is no god but Him. He is the Knower of the Unseen and the Visible. He is the All-Merciful, the Most Merciful. (59:22)

He is Allah-there is no god but Him. He is the King, the Most Pure, the Perfect Peace, the Trustworthy, the Safeguarder, the Almighty, the Compeller, the Supremely Great. Glory be to Allah above all they associate with Him. (59:23)

Allah-there is no god but Him. So let the believers put their trust in Allah. (64:13)

Lord of the East and West-there is no god but Him-so take Him as your Guardian. (73:9)

Say: 'He is Allah, Absolute Oneness.' (112:

thank you

god is one god is one
god is one god is one
god is one god is one
god is one god is one
god is one god is one
god is one god is one
__________________


knowledge is the dom the boss of the of great people. it was there before every one was born.
and never think a guy like you can get through a guy like it (knowledge) say what your thoughts wrong

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-27-2007, 11:40 AM
Saudhoon Saudhoon is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 29
Christians Who Have Not Believed in the Crucifixion[/b]


Christians have provided different answers to the question of who it was who was crucified. These possessed a belief regarded as "heretical" according to Catholic doctrine. That movement is known as "Docetism."

The most important information about Docetism comes from the document Adversus Haereses (Against Herecies) written by the priest Irenaeus (115-202) at the end of the second century CE. Irenaeus refers to one Basilides, one of the representatives of this movement. According to Irenaeus, Basilides, a historian from Alexandria, insisted in his writings between 130 and 150 CE that Jesus had not been crucified. He maintained that somebody else, one Simon of Cyrene, had been crucified and that God had miraculously altered Simon's appearance to resemble that of Jesus, and that the Jews and Romans thus thought they were crucifying Jesus himself. Basilides even wrote that Jesus watched as Simon of Cyrene was being crucified, and that he then moved away and was raised alive into the presence of God.

Where might this information have reached Basilides from? According to the writings of a 3rd century Christian theologian, Clement of Alexandria (150-215), Basilides claimed to have received secret information. According to his account, an individual called Glaucius, who had acted as interpreter for Simon Peter, one of Jesus' disciples, learned this secret from Peter, and Basilides heard it from him. Basilides wrote a new "Bible," in which the gospels were corrected in the light of the information he had received from Glaucius.

Basilides was not the only Docetist to support this claim. In addition to him, various individuals or sects regarded as "heretics" by the Church also supported the view that Jesus was not crucified, but was replaced by someone bearing a resemblance to him. In Was Christ Really Crucified? The Christian writer Faris al-Qayrawani writes:

In the year A.D. 185 a sect of the descendant of the priests of Thebes who embraced Christianity claimed that "God forbids that Christ should be crucified. He was safely lifted up to heaven." Also in the year A.D. 370 a hermetic Gnostic sect that denied the crucifixion of Jesus taught that He "was not crucified but it seemed so to the spectators who crucified Him." Again, in the year A.D. 520 Severus, bishop of Syria, fled to Alexandria where he encountered a group of philosophers teaching that Jesus Christ was not crucified but that it only appeared so to the people who nailed Him on the cross. About A.D. 610 Bishop John, son of the governor of Cyprus, began to proclaim that Christ was not crucified but that it only seemed so to the spectators who crucified Him.

As of the 4th century, however, when the absolute dominion of the Catholic Church was established, Docetists gradually disappeared just like the other movements regarded as "heretical." The teaching that Jesus was crucified confirmed its place as a fundamental dogma of the Christian world by being imposed by the Church.

Mankind only learned the truth about this subject by means of the revelation of the Qur'an to the Prophet Mohammed. In the Qur'an God has revealed this about Jesus:

"… They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them..." (Qur'an, 4:157)
__________________


knowledge is the dom the boss of the of great people. it was there before every one was born.
and never think a guy like you can get through a guy like it (knowledge) say what your thoughts wrong

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-27-2007, 05:11 PM
Nenad's Avatar
Nenad Nenad is offline
modal realist
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,213
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soudhooon
universe have a creator
. . . go for medical treatment . . . , what to say . . . . . .
__________________
DEFINITION IS UNAVOIDABLE

NOTHING CAN ESCAPE FROM BEING SOMETHING
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-28-2007, 09:56 AM
Itsdarts's Avatar
Itsdarts Itsdarts is offline
I believe in Golf Gods
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redford, MI
Posts: 2,611
THere is no evidence of a creator. Just because the writers of the Quran said the sun orbits, it doesn't mean it orbits in a galaxy. That statement about it orbiting could very well have meant that it "appears" to orbit AROUND THE EARTH, which we all know is wrong. The orbits are not planned or calculated, they orbit based solely on their mass and gravity, things that have always existed.

At the time the Quran was written, people of that region and era, were very intelligent in math and science for the times. It isn't surprising that they got some things right. What you have presented is nothing more than when Christians try to reconcile the creation story with evolution.

If we ask you who created the creator, the typical answer is, the creator has always "just existed", he's the uncaused cause. But why isn't it acceptable to just say that Matter has always existed (in another form) prior to the big bang, bringing sub atomic particles together to form the matter we see today? We have evidence to say that this was the case, that all matter was sub atomic high energy prior to the big bang. We know through physics that matter can't be created or destroyed, and if that is the case, then it leads to the conclusion that matter has always "just existed" in one form or another. You have not proven a creator at all, nor have you shown any evidence for one.
__________________
"The irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existence, rather a condition of it." -Nietzsche

The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad. -Nietzsche

Art raises its head where creeds relax. -Nietzsche
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-28-2007, 12:19 PM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 22,527
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsdarts
THere is no evidence of a creator.
There is no alternative to Creationism and Monotheism.

The proof is in the absence of alternatives - or any possibility of it.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-28-2007, 12:23 PM
Expedion Expedion is offline
Adept
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsdarts
THere is no evidence of a creator. Just because the writers of the Quran said the sun orbits, it doesn't mean it orbits in a galaxy. That statement about it orbiting could very well have meant that it "appears" to orbit AROUND THE EARTH, which we all know is wrong. The orbits are not planned or calculated, they orbit based solely on their mass and gravity, things that have always existed.

At the time the Quran was written, people of that region and era, were very intelligent in math and science for the times. It isn't surprising that they got some things right. What you have presented is nothing more than when Christians try to reconcile the creation story with evolution.

If we ask you who created the creator, the typical answer is, the creator has always "just existed", he's the uncaused cause. But why isn't it acceptable to just say that Matter has always existed (in another form) prior to the big bang, bringing sub atomic particles together to form the matter we see today? We have evidence to say that this was the case, that all matter was sub atomic high energy prior to the big bang. We know through physics that matter can't be created or destroyed, and if that is the case, then it leads to the conclusion that matter has always "just existed" in one form or another. You have not proven a creator at all, nor have you shown any evidence for one.
Matter and the Metaphysical are things that seperate themselves at a certain point. Matter existest to a certain extend. The metaphysical moves freely around. Making sure that matter stays in existence. Without the Metaphysical as a foundation for matter, there would be no matter at all. No existence whatsoever of anything.

Different rules apply to the Metaphysical side of life compared to the Materialistic one. Yet both can function hand in hand. But the only thing is that materials are ALWAYS bound to ether in order to exist. The field of infinity, the field of void, what names you have. Isn't bounded. It is a field of impossible creation. It rests on it's own existence, no independence.

So knowing what God is. That's a long journey to find out, but it is certainly possible. It only takes a conscious choice of the participant to find that out.

It's the question that matters, the journey. So it is important to stay in the Now. Because all the asumptions and imagination and on-going philosophy of something that you have not yet experienced in a true conscious way can be misleading you from the things happening in the NOW.

So open up your mind and sharpen up your ears and eyes. And observe

- Expedion
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-28-2007, 12:52 PM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 22,527
Thumbs up 'COME - LET US REASON TOGETHER'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saudhoon
Christians Who Have Not Believed in the Crucifixion[/b]


Christians have provided different answers to the question of who it was who was crucified.
Some maths and logic:

Both the NT & Quran contradict each other. It means at least one must be wrong. Both the NT and Quran contradict the OT. According to the OT, both are wrong - this means both can be wrong based on the OT being right. All three can be wrong - based on atheism being correct.

There is no chance of more than one of those entities being right: its only possible that one is/can be right. Here, the OT wins if either the NT or Quran is proven as wrong - because it makes them both wrong also - because both hold a common belief to an extent - Eg: if the factor of Jesus or Mary is proven wrong, it makes both automatically wrong - and the OT right - except against Atheism. The stakes are high and precariously couched. This is a correct logics equation of the three M/E based religions, and an explanation of the chaos and conflict: each is inclined to prove they are not the wrong one, by claiming all others are wrong.

Still, some factors of logical potentials hover upon this scenario.

Based on provables - historical, factual factors - the OT has more vindication here by an unsurpassable margin than the NT and Quran. With Atheism - only the OT stands as an equal counter on a scientific basis - namely the issue between Evolution/Big Bang/Randomity/etc and Creationism, which the OT introduced - remains undecided.

By period of time, impact and cencus - the OT towers over all three other possibilities. Do the maths.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-28-2007, 10:30 PM
jackson33 jackson33 is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,343
Joe; If all three (OT-NT or Quran) are wrong it means only that they are all WRONG. Atheism is the belief simple we are part of a whole and we simply die.
Many feel their maybe or is a super power of sorts that played a role in our being and may play a role in some form of after life, whether eternal or not and dependent on no other heavenly act.

Saudhoon; IMO; Religion as we understand it, stems well back before what IAJ considers the age of reasoning or the ability to pass on information vis writing. Ancient Man prayed to multiple gods and often had what is still classified as sacrificial testimony. Historians seem to be hung up on 9-10k
years BC, but I and a few others feel reasoning had to be, for the many artifacts we find dating back 30-50k+ years ago to have been.

Science in Religion, goes well back in time with the Hindu (2500BC)and Mayan Societies. Although the Hindu believed in multiple Gods, Brahman was the definitive one. Hinduism of sorts. However or for what reasons the OT, NT or the Quran came much later than original theological beliefs, written or not.
This no less than the hundreds that followed them with various variations.
What I find interesting is the apparent NEED for a variation of societies during 450-500 BC. Buddhism and Confucianism both taking root about 480BC and Islam taking root shortly there after.

In short Religions have come down through time, one after another, for various reasons, some dieing hard deaths, others still going and all leading to mass confusion on which could possibly be correct....UNLESS THEY ALL ARE, in this case Joe is correct that this could not be.....
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-29-2007, 02:53 AM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 22,527
Thumbs up THOU SHALT NOT STEAL - AND HIDE BEHIND YOUR RELIGION.

The Islamic Mosque in Jerusalem is built upon Jewish land and its most sacred site, while Pretend Pals invented by Europe [fake arab muslims] prostrate there ass upto heaven. They are supported by Europeans who will not be free by the truth.

The land of Israel speaks:


'THOU SHALT COVET WHAT IS NOT YOURS'

'THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS'

These folks, are not just religious laws - they are also encumbent on atheists and Big Bang worshipers. These laws transcend the UN laws.

HARD PROOF - GREATER THAN THE QURAN AND NT:


Jerusalem: Hard evidence
By ETGAR LEFKOVITS
Sep 27, 2007


For years, it was a Jerusalem archeological mystery. Where did the immense limestones used to build the Second Temple come from and how did they get there?

Some archeologists originally presumed that the quarry must have been located in close proximity to the Temple Mount, while others said it had to be located outside the built-up Old City.

But nobody knew for sure.

Then a group of archeologists from the state-run Antiquities Authority suddenly stumbled upon the quarry during a routine salvage excavation in an outlying neighborhood ahead of the planned construction of a new school.

The quarry is located in the Ramat Shlomo neighborhood, four kilometers northwest of the Old City, on a ridge that rises about 80 meters above the height of the Temple Mount.

"This is the first time stones which were used to build the Temple Mount walls were found," said Yuval Baruch, of the Antiquities Authority, who was involved in the dig. He said the site was used 2,000 years ago by dozens of King Herod's workers during the construction of the Mount's retaining walls.

SCORES OF quarries have previously been uncovered in Jerusalem - including ones larger than the present find - but this is the first archeologists believe was used in the construction of the Temple Mount itself.

The enormous size of the stones found at the site - up to eight meters long - as well as coins and fragments of pottery vessels dating back to the first century CE, indicated that this was the site used in the construction of the walls, including the Western Wall, the archeologists said.

"We have never found any other monument in Israel with stones this size except for the Temple Mount walls," Baruch said.

The Jewish proxy ruler of the Holy Land under Roman occupation, Herod has long been famous for his construction projects, using only the finest quality stones in the erection of public buildings.

The quarry's pristine white rock, which resembles marble, and its huge 5-7-ton blocks are similar to those found at the bottom of the Western Wall.

The huge stones were likely transported to the Temple Mount by horses, camels or slaves, Baruch said, noting that part of an ancient main road to Jerusalem which was used for the immense operation was recently uncovered just 100 meters from the quarry.

"Don't forget that this was a royal project, and gravity could help the transfer of the stones," said Bar-Ilan University archeologist Dr. Gabi Barkai, explain how such heavy material could be moved a number of kilometers by use of animals and slaves. Herod, he said, would have spared no amount of manpower to do it. And luckily, it was downhill.

Barkai, who was not involved in the dig, called the quarry "the most convenient place where good quality stones could be transferred to the Temple Mount."

He thinks the quarry was likely only one of several which provided stone for the Temple Mount, with the others still uncovered.

The quarry was abandoned after the Second Temple period and is now surrounded by a sprawling haredi community and olive trees planted by Arab villagers.

Although archeologists have only excavated about one-third of the site (the rest lies on private property and will not be touched), one of their biggest finds came about as the result of a forgetful worker who left his five-kilogram iron tool there. The iron stake used to split the stone was found wedged into one of the massive cuts in the white limestone.

For archeologists who long pondered the site of the Second Temple quarry, the sudden discovery was monumental. "This is a sensational historical find," Baruch concluded.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-29-2007, 03:18 AM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 22,527
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackson33
Joe; If all three (OT-NT or Quran) are wrong it means only that they are all WRONG. Atheism is the belief simple we are part of a whole and we simply die.
Read my math factors again. Sure, if all three are wrong, Atheism wins - which is not in contradiction with what I said. But if the NT and/or Quran are wrong - atheism has NOT won. Atheism has no factors which prove itself right against the OT as we speak. ToE is a theory only, while Genesis' decalaration of the 'seed' [outgrowth from the host parentage] being responsible for all transmission of an offspring is not a theory: its a manifest FACT. ToE can only be substantiated where the seed factor is absent - and that's a trick no evolutionist can perform.


Quote:
Many feel their maybe or is a super power of sorts that played a role in our being and may play a role in some form of after life, whether eternal or not and dependent on no other heavenly act.
And this is a sound premise, wholly alligned with science, maths and logic. There is no alternative to it, nor have you one.



Quote:
Saudhoon; IMO; Religion as we understand it, stems well back before what IAJ considers the age of reasoning or the ability to pass on information vis writing. Ancient Man prayed to multiple gods and often had what is still classified as sacrificial testimony. Historians seem to be hung up on 9-10k
years BC, but I and a few others feel reasoning had to be, for the many artifacts we find dating back 30-50k+ years ago to have been.
Is there not an applicable qualification in order here? You have no evidence of 35K speech endowed humans, nor anything which can be caled 'history' - but you do have a host of excuses and reasons to attached to your unverifiable claims. Contrastingly, Genesis vindicates what it says with an accuracy which is unfathomable: human speech and history is 5766 years old today - and all you have is theoretical, adademic assumptions, matched against HARD EVIDENCE.

Please do tell me when you find evidence of a pre-6000 NAME, DATE, NATION, WAR, FOLKSONG, RECIPE, TOMBSTONE, EPITAPH - anything with a traceable historical or civilization imprint - but without confusion. You should have millions of these across the planet, intersperses every few decades apart: I ask for just a ONER. And lnow that writings does not impact here - this is an effect, not a cause of human speech. Genesis displays 100% real history and human speech [dialogue] even before writings emerged: 5676 years predates all writings - yet here there is historically verifiable real names, dates, places and events.

Quote:
Science in Religion, goes well back in time with the Hindu (2500BC)and Mayan Societies.
2500 BCE is a vindication of the OT datings, being under 6000. Science in religion is first introduced - with hard copy proof in Genesis. But this is not targeting the hindu religion, which only affirms what is said in Genesis.

Its not correct that you should act so boldly of your claims. Being more humble is in order: if you make an accusation - back it up! Genesis does.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-29-2007, 03:27 AM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 22,527
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackson33
Joe; If all three (OT-NT or Quran) are wrong it means only that they are all WRONG. Atheism is the belief simple we are part of a whole and we simply die.
Read my math factors again. Sure, if all three are wrong, Atheism wins - which is not in contradiction with what I said. But if the NT and/or Quran are wrong - atheism has NOT won. Atheism has no factors which prove itself right against the OT as we speak. ToE is a theory only, while Genesis' decalaration of the 'seed' [outgrowth from the host parentage] being responsible for all transmission of an offspring is not a thery: its a manifest FACT. ToE can only be substantiated where the seed factor is absent - and that's a trick no evolutionist can perform.


Quote:
Many feel their maybe or is a super power of sorts that played a role in our being and may play a role in some form of after life, whether eternal or not and dependent on no other heavenly act.
And this is a sound premise, wholly alligned with science, maths and logic. There is no alternative to it, nor have you one.



Quote:
Saudhoon; IMO; Religion as we understand it, stems well back before what IAJ considers the age of reasoning or the ability to pass on information vis writing. Ancient Man prayed to multiple gods and often had what is still classified as sacrificial testimony. Historians seem to be hung up on 9-10k
years BC, but I and a few others feel reasoning had to be, for the many artifacts we find dating back 30-50k+ years ago to have been.
Is there not an applicable qualification in order here? You have no evidence of 35K speech endowed humans, nor anything which can be called 'history' - but you do have a host of excuses and reasons to attached to your unverifiable claims. Contrastingly, Genesis vindicates what it says with an accuracy which is unfathomable: human speech and history is 5766 years old today - and all you have is theoretical, adademic assumptions, matched against HARD EVIDENCE.

Please do tell me when you find evidence of a pre-6000 NAME, DATE, NATION, WAR, FOLKSONG, RECIPE, TOMBSTONE, EPITAPH - anything with a traceable historical or civilization imprint - but without confusion. You should have millions of these across the planet, interspersed every few decades apart: I ask for just a ONER. And know that writings does not impact here - this is an effect, not a cause of human speech. Genesis displays 100% real history and human speech [dialogue] even before writings emerged: 5676 years predates all writings - yet here there is historically verifiable real names, dates, places and events.

Quote:
Science in Religion, goes well back in time with the Hindu (2500BC)and Mayan Societies.
2500 BCE is a vindication of the OT datings, being under 6000. Science in religion is first introduced - with hard copy proof in Genesis. But this is not targeting the hindu religion, which only affirms what is said in Genesis.

Its not correct that you should act so boldly of your claims. Being more humble is in order: if you make an accusation - back it up! Genesis does.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-29-2007, 09:48 PM
Amergain's Avatar
Amergain Amergain is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Inverness-shire, UK
Posts: 1,195
Send a message via Yahoo to Amergain
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamJoseph
There is no alternative to Creationism and Monotheism.
The problem is with the definition of Creationism. If you mean either of the two creation myths in the O.T., Gen. 1 and Gen 2, one has to be wrong or both. We know with certainty that the Earth was not created by incantation of a god 60 centuries ago. We know Earth is far older because we have rocks approaching 4.5 Billion years old. We know animals and plants evolved in graduated stages and sudden post-catastrophe explosions many times since 3.8 Billion years ago. Creationism if it means postulating a creator, then we can say that the universe was created at least and probably before 14 billion years ago. If it was created it must have a creator. We agree so far.

The debate is on the nature of this Creator.

There are two options in this category.


1. Humanoid God and Revelation: You believe the Creator is a personal being with a human like personality and emotions. Jews and Muslims believe that One Anthropomorphic God to be named JHWH, Elohim, and Allah. Christians have a Trinity with three personal gods combined in one. I do not think that such a cosmic being with conscious cognition is that creator. He is obviously a fictional being designed by primitive humans based on a tribal War Lord. He is not a rational proposition. A more plausible option is to simply say that there is a Creator of the Universe and nobody knows what it is like.

2. God is a being but totally unknown, unwilling or unable to give revelation or interfere with animal/human animal interactions. This is the God of the Deists. IUnlike Judeo-Islamic-Christianit, it is a rational Theistic hypothesis. It fits with the fact that no revelation or claimed revelation is credible to close scrutiny. For whatever reason, the Creator has not contacted us. Those who claim revelation are not credible and their thousands of revelations often contradict each other and may contradict their own scriptures.

3. The Creator is a Unified Natural Force or Combination of Forces whose properties include creation of matter and energy. How the force produced the singularity which expanded into the Universe of matter and energy, is yet unknown except for some interesting but untestable Theoretical Physics. I could speculate on M-Theory, Quantum Physics, 5 vibrating energy superstrings of incredibly small size, or all of the above.

Quote:
The proof is in the absence of alternatives - or any possibility of it.
All we know is that the Universe came into existence 14 Billion years ago with the possibility of something before the Big Bang. There is no alternative to that. The Matter-energy Universe is absolutely real. The postulations are of Humanoid Gods (Allah, JHWY, Trinity), unknowable Deistic Gods, or a Natural if not understood process of self-creation. I do not like the term Supernatural. Natural means it exists. Super means above or beyond or excluding existence. It is a stupid word. Even if the One God of Islam exists, He is natural in the category of supreme creative being. If he is apart from Nature, he is apart from reality, and he is apart from existing.

Amergain
__________________
Religion is an irrational meme complex, a computer virus of the brain. It inhibits rational, analytical, and sceptical screening (Rubbish filter). The results are gullibility, superstition, paranoia, hate, and violence.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-30-2007, 04:56 AM
IamJoseph IamJoseph is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 22,527
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amergain
The problem is with the definition of Creationism. If you mean either of the two creation myths in the O.T., Gen. 1 and Gen 2, one has to be wrong or both. We know with certainty that the Earth was not created by incantation of a god 60 centuries ago. We know Earth is far older because we have rocks approaching 4.5 Billion years old. We know animals and plants evolved in graduated stages and sudden post-catastrophe explosions many times since 3.8 Billion years ago. Creationism if it means postulating a creator, then we can say that the universe was created at least and probably before 14 billion years ago. If it was created it must have a creator. We agree so far.
You are spewing BS with a Cap B.

Quote:

The debate is on the nature of this Creator.


No - its not. The OT describes the indescribable in the most vindicated way of any other: transcendent, unknowable, indescribable, incomparable with anything within creation. If you have or know of a more vindicated declaration - put it on the table. Screaming SCIENCE! is not an answer - science was introduced in Genesis, as was the first concept of the universe description, and that it had a beginning [finite!]- and science does NOT have a semblance of an alternative answer here.

Science starts only because the universe is seen as finite; the BB is a 'theory' which seeks to define the beginning point - nothing more than that, except for a brick wall, and desperations of pre- and multi-universe, which only pushes the goal post further back - nothing more than that. Genesis opposes a CAUSELESS universe - and thus science is inclined with Genesis.

Quote:

There are two options in this category.
No - there are not two options, and no categories. Stop fantasising, and act like an honest science enthusiast if you want to use the term. When Genesis says no one does or can know - it is vindicated today. The myth and fiction thus becomes pointed at those who made such an accusation.


Quote:
1. Humanoid God and Revelation: You believe the Creator is a personal being with a human like personality and emotions.
WOOF!

"GD IS *NOT* LIKE MAN" [Samuel]

"NO MAN SHALL SEE ME [KNOW ME] AND LIVE"

Vindicated!

Quote:
Jews and Muslims believe that One Anthropomorphic God to be named JHWH, Elohim, and Allah. Christians have a Trinity with three personal gods combined in one. I do not think that such a cosmic being with conscious cognition is that creator. He is obviously a fictional being designed by primitive humans based on a tribal War Lord. He is not a rational proposition. A more plausible option is to simply say that there is a Creator of the Universe and nobody knows what it is like.
Wrong again! Judaism separated from christianity because of its personalising and trinity factor [historical, non-mythical fact]; Judaism rejected islam because the name of a prophet was attached to belief in Gd ['No Gd but with Mohammed']. It appears you do not understand what Monotheism is or the pristine, mathematical and scientific explanation of it as per Judaism. Thus you are chorusing on without commas here: posing myth as fact by posing fact as myth.

Quote:

2. God is a being but totally unknown, unwilling or unable to give revelation


This is a concept introduced in Judaism - not your idea.

Quote:

or interfere with animal/human animal interactions.
Quote:
Why? What's your proof - jitterbugging particles? Judaism says everything is by a transcendent creator and there is no randomity. Science inclines with Judaism, while anything else is unscientific and abuses the CAUSE & EFFECT factor. You do NOT have a CAUSE how animals appeared, nor the criteria governing their existence. All animal rights laws come from Judaism - exclusively. Reject or contradict Genesis when you have something to say!




Quote:
Those who claim revelation are not credible and their thousands of revelations often contradict each other and may contradict their own scriptures.
Why should there not be contradictions: is there no contradictions in science? But there is no contradictions in the OT: show me one, without comparing it with other 2nd hand belief systems? You will 100s of 1000s of dates, numbers, distances, maps, historical events, nations, events, diets, statues - surely you can find some real hard contradictions via maths and history of a 3,500 year document?

Quote:
3. The Creator is a Unified Natural Force or Combination of Forces whose properties include creation of matter and energy.


You are confused. Force, properties, matter, energy and combinations are THIS side of Creation. So while making every fictional charge against Judaism - you come out worshipping fiction. And if one asked you to prove in a lab or theory how forces and matter become a complex universe and formed life - you will refer us to billions of years of BS. Is it still science - when none can take you to task, and you can say whatever you want? Did I tell you - pigs fly in the constellation of Capricon - just look behind a red rock 5 degrees NW of Capistan. Check it out.

[quote]
How the force produced the singularity which expanded into the Universe of matter and energy, is yet unknown except for some interesting but untestable Theoretical Physics. I could speculate on M-Theory, Quantum Physics, 5 vibrating energy superstrings of incredibly small size, or all of the above. [/qote]

Awww shucks! Its also a convenient way of calling in pseudo sci-fi. Even Star Trek would be ashamed. Does it mean that one day you WILL find out - as inferred? My science book says, if your talking science, you cannot reject something, scientifically, without having an alternative 'scientific' proof: am I wrong?




Quote:
All we know is that the Universe came into existence


And the first document which said the universe is finite, with a 'beginning' - was which mythical document? Need a hint?


Quote:

14 Billion years ago with the possibility of something before the Big Bang.
Quote:
There is no alternative to that.
Of course there is! If there was 'SOMETHING' before the BB - it contradicts the Finity factor. Hello - are we still talking 'contradictions'?

Quote:
The Matter-energy Universe is absolutely real.
Brilliant. What about Pineapples - are they not real?

Quote:
The postulations are of Humanoid Gods (Allah, JHWY, Trinity), unknowable Deistic Gods, or a Natural if not understood process of self-creation. I do not like the term Supernatural. Natural means it exists. Super means above or beyond or excluding existence. It is a stupid word. Even if the One God of Islam exists, He is natural in the category of supreme creative being. If he is apart from Nature, he is apart from reality, and he is apart from existing.
There is no such thing as NATURE or NATURAL. These are only placebos used for the inexplicable. Soon as we learn a little more, we flick that word for something we know, Eg: GRAVITY. Its like an ant saying a car comes from nature.

The first science is, THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE TO CREATIONISM AND MONOTHEISM - which is introduced in Genesis. The answer what lies behind those constants is in the opening preamble of Genesis first four words: 'IN THE BEGINNING GOD'. Today, science is seeking a cause for Creation - theorising BB, which has the same problem it runs away from; science is also looking for an irreducable and indivisable particle/entity - but has never come close to finding one: these are nothing more than alternative assumptions of creationism and monotheism. Its trying to assume what Genesis has declared, and calling it its own: this is the same which christianity and islam did. And the contradictions is emulated by atheists. No one has said anything new other than emulation of Genesis.

Its 100% scientific - disprove it by putting something on the table. If you cannot do that, you are in the midst of Genesis' description of the status quo. When you change that situation - call me! I love science - its the closest we have to truth. I love sci-fi too.

THE FIRST STEP OF KNOWING IS THE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT WHAT WE DO NOT KNOW.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-30-2007, 12:02 PM
Saudhoon Saudhoon is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 29
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nenad
. . . go for medical treatment . . . , what to say . . . . . .

i think you are lack of something

go for medical treatment


read it

thank you
__________________


knowledge is the dom the boss of the of great people. it was there before every one was born.
and never think a guy like you can get through a guy like it (knowledge) say what your thoughts wrong

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yogic Metaphysics and Holographic Dreams in Maya Mike Dubbeld General Philosophy 5 05-23-2010 08:15 PM
The Paradox Of Nothingness And The Case For The New Deism AlumnodeVerum Religion 17 08-01-2007 12:35 AM
God and the Universe (madesta and Anil) Mike Dubbeld Religion 0 12-19-2006 04:42 AM
The Dangers of Creation ku Religion 206 03-18-2006 04:38 AM
A new view for the universe nwaogu General Science and Nature 15 03-10-2006 06:45 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:08 AM.



Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright 2000-2008 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Hosted and Maintained by The IceStorm Network