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  #1  
Old 08-15-2005, 07:09 PM
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Confussion between Science and Belief

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"The President has unfortunately confused the difference between science and belief."
- Fred Spilhaus, Executive Director of the American Geophysical Union

UPDATED 11:50 P.M. ET: To the chagrin of scientists, President Bush said Monday he believes schools should discuss "intelligent design'' alongside evolution when teaching students about the creation of life. (also note that Evolution doesn't explain "the creation of life", only what happened after life began.)

During a round-table interview with reporters from five Texas newspapers, Bush declined to go into detail on his personal views of the origin of life. But he said students should learn about both ideas, Knight Ridder Newspapers reported.

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought,'' Bush said. "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes.''

Intelligent design says life on Earth is too complex to have developed through evolution, implying that a higher power must have had a hand in creation.

Confusion in the White House

Fred Spilhaus, Executive Director of the American Geophysical Union (AGU), said the president is confusing belief with science.

"If [Bush] meant that intelligent design should be given equal standing with the theory of evolution in the nation's science classrooms, then he is undermining efforts to increase the understanding of science," Spilhaus said in a statement. "Intelligent design' is not a scientific theory."

Evolution states that plant, animals and lower life forms are all subject to change over time, and that changes can bring about new species with differing characteristics. Humans are said to have evolved from other primates.

Christian conservatives -- a substantial part of Bush's voting base -- have been pushing for the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.

Untestable

Scientists have rejected intelligent design as an attempt to force religion into science education. They say the notion has no support from any observable evidence. Evolution, on the other hand, is a well-documented theory that explains existing evidence, which draws from fossils, DNA analyses and investigations of living things.

Intelligent design proponents claim evolution theory has holes, so alternatives should be taught. Scientists counter that evolution is among the most solid theories of science.

The idea of intelligent design is entirely untestable, scientists further argue, and if an idea can't be tested, then it can't be proved one way or the other and so is not a theory.

"Scientific theories, like evolution, relativity and plate tectonics, are based on hypotheses that have survived extensive testing and repeated verification," Spilhaus says. "The President has unfortunately confused the difference between science and belief. It is essential that students understand that a scientific theory is not a belief, hunch, or untested hypothesis."

The AGU is comprised of 43,000 Earth and space scientists.

Bush spoke with reporters from the San Antonio Express-News, the Houston Chronicle, The Dallas Morning News, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and The Austin American-Statesman.

http://www.livescience.com/othernews...sh_design.html
Emphasis added is mine. GWB says, different ideas SHOULD be taught, and I can agree with this, but I draw the line when different ideas that are presented as science and aren't, are taught as Science. If Bush wants ID taught in schools, file it under the category of MYTHOLOGY, just like the Greek Gods and their MYTHS or Indian FOLKLORE.

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  #2  
Old 08-15-2005, 07:13 PM
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I agree. Generally knowledge must be given a weight of acceptence. There is no rule saying you must believe science. We are free not to. But its information must be in referrence to a process which keeps things as honest as possible.

You can't teach just anything as science. It must reach certain criterion. That doesn't mean it is the ultimate source of knowledge, but it does make it a type of knoweldge which is branded with process/safety measures.
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Old 08-15-2005, 10:43 PM
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I have to agree with president Bush. However I disagree where intelligent design should be taught.

Inelligent design could not be taught in a science class. That would be like telling the class one thing about scientific theory and throwing superstituon into the mix. Evolutionary thought is science at it's best.

Instead Intelligent design should be taught along with Mythology. Our kids, in the US, are taught and have to take courses on greek Mythology. I beleive this is meant to confuse our young people into the belief that Greek mythology is mythology yet Christianity is not. In other words it says look how rediculous Mythology is; but now lets get down to business about god and, we can show the truth in science class!

So, Christianity with the remaining nonsensical religions should be taught in schools. Right along with Greek mythology to show how Mythological thought "evolves".

Now that's an idea I favor. To me the Right wingers have opened a doorway that never should have been opened - for them. Christianity should be taught in history class. Absolutley, I'll sign up and be a teacher.
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Old 08-16-2005, 04:34 AM
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Personaly i think he is wrong. Theoredically(sp?) he is right that they should teach the ID idea in school, how ever, it should be taught as a overall god idea not Christian, Islam, Jewish alone, but together. Problem is, too many people want their GOD taught and only their god...which is wrong.
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Old 08-16-2005, 05:59 AM
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There are absolute reasons why Bush is vindicated:

1. The BB is only a Theory, with no proof, and is in great contradiction of commonsense logic. It gives no answers, while producing great anomolies. And because its validity can never be adequately resolved - it serves no purpose for mankind or education relying solely on this theory. It should not be confused as legitimate because it contains some established scientific basis - these are used only as building blocks of the BB Theory, and is not attached to its final conclusion, the latter conclusion being a mere assumption.

2. Apart from I.D., a number of new, alternative Theories have and continue to be emerging, including MultiVerse, String, Multiple Universes, etc. While these are also not proven or established, they do resolve some of the anomolies of the BB. It is thus possible a new variational Theory, or a fully new one, will emerge, once the door is open to new, upcoming views and scenarios.

The same applies with the Evolution/Creation debate. darwin's Theory has now been refuted as containing great anomolies by numerous scientests. What happens when we become fixated in a BAD/WRONG SCIENCE?! Would the world still be a sphere if medivial Europe had its way with its centuries old flat earth policy?


IF WE KEEP GOING THE SAME ROAD - CHANCES ARE WE WILL END UP WHERE ITS POINTING: A NON-CONCLUSION.
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Old 08-16-2005, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon
Personaly i think he is wrong. Theoredically(sp?) he is right that they should teach the ID idea in school, how ever, it should be taught as a overall god idea not Christian, Islam, Jewish alone, but together. Problem is, too many people want their GOD taught and only their god...which is wrong.

I.D. is not necessairrly a God premise - though it can fall into it by default, because of its inference and fallout. But I agree with a non-denominational Generic Creator premise in schools and in general - this would be an Einstein calibre leap for humanity, and will instantly create a more harmonious world. But it will take a long time before it is welcomed or ratified: most religionists are more hung up with their personalised Creator than with the Creator. IOW, God has become politicised.


FIRST BE A GOOD PERSON - THEN BOAST YOUR RELIGION IS THE BEST.
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  #7  
Old 08-16-2005, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamJoseph
There are absolute reasons why Bush is vindicated:

1. The BB is only a Theory, with no proof, and is in great contradiction of commonsense logic. It gives no answers, while producing great anomolies. And because its validity can never be adequately resolved - it serves no purpose for mankind or education relying solely on this theory. It should not be confused as legitimate because it contains some established scientific basis - these are used only as building blocks of the BB Theory, and is not attached to its final conclusion, the latter conclusion being a mere assumption.
Evolution is only a theory that contains evidence that is testable and observable, REPEATEDLY, and has NOTHING to do with the BB. The BB isn't the issue that the conservative right (CR) is talking about. the CR wants ID discussed along side Evolution as a science. ID is NOT a scientific theory, it is not testable or observable. It is a hypothisis based on faith alone. That is not science. Remember the topic..."Confussion between science and faith."

Quote:
2. Apart from I.D., a number of new, alternative Theories have and continue to be emerging, including MultiVerse, String, Multiple Universes, etc. While these are also not proven or established, they do resolve some of the anomolies of the BB. It is thus possible a new variational Theory, or a fully new one, will emerge, once the door is open to new, upcoming views and scenarios.
Again, ID is about origins of life versus EVOLUTION, not the universe, two totally different topics. Please stay focused.

Quote:
The same applies with the Evolution/Creation debate. darwin's Theory has now been refuted as containing great anomolies by numerous scientests. What happens when we become fixated in a BAD/WRONG SCIENCE?! Would the world still be a sphere if medivial Europe had its way with its centuries old flat earth policy?
Here is a quote from the article...."Intelligent design proponents claim evolution theory has holes, so alternatives should be taught. Scientists counter that evolution is among the most solid theories of science."



Dragon, do you think ID with a generic god should be taught in science class? If not, where?

RA, I agree with your thoughts on having been taught Greek Mythology to show how silly that was and to solidify Christianity. Does anyone know how long the Greek gods lasted before they became a myth?
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Old 08-16-2005, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsdarts
Does anyone know how long the Greek gods lasted before they became a myth?
About 3000 years.

But remember that Greek (and Roman) gods didn't hide invisibly - they were active participants in history and everyday life as far as the Greeks/Romans were concerned. Thus there are stories about them in quite a different sense from the xtian god - who, if we look at the NT (since the OT is about Jehovah, and not the xtian god at all), never does anything at all.

So greek religion was a living religion, whereas xtianity is a dead religion. There are no stories about god today, whereas the greks had current stories about their gods.
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Old 08-16-2005, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symptom777
About 3000 years.

But remember that Greek (and Roman) gods didn't hide invisibly - they were active participants in history and everyday life as far as the Greeks/Romans were concerned. Thus there are stories about them in quite a different sense from the xtian god - who, if we look at the NT (since the OT is about Jehovah, and not the xtian god at all), never does anything at all.

So greek religion was a living religion, whereas xtianity is a dead religion. There are no stories about god today, whereas the greks had current stories about their gods.
Damn, ya mean we might have to tolerate the Xian myth for another 1000 years? <sigh>
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  #10  
Old 08-16-2005, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsdarts
Damn, ya mean we might have to tolerate the Xian myth for another 1000 years? <sigh>
It's worse than that.
The grek gods were interactive, so of course it was only a matter of time before it became kinda obvious that they'd stopped interacting. The xtian god is lessez-faire so we'll never notice the difference. So I suspect that xtianity will go on a lot longer. On the other hand the Jews will start getting restles sooner when it becomes apparent to them that their god hasn't done jack in 4000 years (apart from allow a terrible deception to take place some 2000 years ago).
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Old 08-16-2005, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symptom777
So greek religion was a living religion, whereas xtianity is a dead religion. There are no stories about god today, whereas the greks had current stories about their gods.
The preceding, courtesy of the British misinformation sevice in The Netherlands.
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Old 08-16-2005, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leouna
The preceding, courtesy of the British misinformation sevice in The Netherlands.
Now, now. Everything I say 3 times is true.
What's the latest story about god - like what did he do yesterday?

Did he rape any virgins whilst disguised as a swan?
Or give a helmet of invulnerability to a warrior?
Or turn anyone into an animal, stone, or an immortal?
Or cast anyone adrift for 7 years?
Or hold a beauty pageant?
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Old 08-16-2005, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symptom777
What's the latest story about god - like what did he do yesterday?
God avoided telling children stories in an adult forum.
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Old 08-16-2005, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leouna
God avoided telling children stories in an adult forum.
That's easy for you to say. What about soemthing he did do, rather than didn't do?

I didn't do loads of things yesterday, meself.
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Old 08-16-2005, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symptom777
What about soemthing he did do, rather than didn't do?
God helped me part Holland and France, despite coordinated subterfuge by the Neo-Jacobins.

All of the institutions failed; all of the credit for that goes to God.
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