FrostCloud Forums  

Go Back   FrostCloud Forums > Philosophy > Religion

Greetings!

Religion Discussions on religions, mysticism, and spirituality as well as opposing views such as agnosticism and atheism.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-20-2008, 09:55 AM
Biosphere's Avatar
Biosphere Biosphere is offline
Walk 2 roads 1 at a time
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 617
We as God

I used to be an atheist, I used to believe we were a product of chance mutations and that it was absurd to believe that God existed at all, I used to believe this and fought with dogmatic theists when they deemed it important to help me understand their faith. I was kind but it was easy to ridicule scriptures as myth - it still is in my opinion.

So, if I don't believe in the omnipresent invisible man with his list of rules and I debunk common atheistic beliefs in random mutations, yet I still believe in God then how do I reconcile this in reality? What do I believe and why do I believe it?

A friend recently asked me to elucidate that which I believe - this is that effort and any response to this thread is encouraged, even if it is to ridicule me (karma).

It has been a habit of mine since university to put myself in the shoes of the person who is arguing a point with me. If a person agreed with me the conversation would dry up after the first "exactly" comment. Being me I found this dissatisfying so I would purposely take the arguments to the counter position and present them as my own position - one day I did this and suddenly I understood why the counter point was being argued.

What? This was odd because I still believed what I thought but suddenly I could see that I was making a choice between two correct answers, I chose the answer that best suited my character. Boy did this change things up for me. Suddenly things were not black and white but trillions of shades of grey.

I applied this new methodology to everything I thought that had been unquestioned in the past. I purposely stood on the other side of the fence and argued every case against myself, this helped me change many of my predetermined belief systems and reinforce many others.

The very last one was at the fundamental level, it was:-

Why do people believe in God?

The world seemed to be in two camps on this one and what I had discovered was from arguing both sides of an argument was there were two valid sides to every question, otherwise how could they survive an argument, some would say blind faith but some people I spoke to did not seem blind at all, they seemed quite intelligent and wise.

I looked back through history and tracked spiritualism through ancient cultures from all over the world, all over the world and all through history what you find is spirituality in action - why? These cultures often had no concept of other cultures and yet fundamentally they all believed the same thing - they could connect to the spiritual and the spiritual held remarkably similar views. Every one of these cultures formed an understanding that they were spiritually connected to each other and that this spiritual self could be evil or good, they all desired good though. Altruism was rewarded and the witch doctors were to be feared and revered at the same time.

So, how could this be sustained if there was no validity at all, even with super heavyweight degree's, doctorates and endeavours of research into evolution these people believed in God despite their education?

Those who were highly educated delved into the mystical wonders that I debunked as though they lived there very comfortably indeed, and their wisdom struck me as being advanced.

Knowing this I applied myself to chose to believe what was being said to me, I was not afraid of doing this as I was rather practiced at it and knew I would revert back as soon as I found the fundamental flaw I was expecting.

There were two main issues I found that were flawed :-

On the spiritual side they had a tendency to back up their arguments with scripture written thousands of years before science was able to establish themselves, therefore they dismissed science outright - foolish and blind.

On the side of evolution they based everything on the concept of random mutation and survival of the fittest, this was fine as it was evident and yet there were circumstances when this mutative process did not explain at all certain characteristics in the biological world which made me pause to consider, things such as the co-operative behaviours of different species that were co-dependant on each other, as well as the insects and certain animals whose techniques in the fields of camouflage were too coincidental to be random developments - phasmids (stick insects) are examples of this.

I say the things above in their final form, this is not how easy it was, I had to spend years determining the validity of my conclusions, I traced back, then forward then in many different ways to different scenarios - I was someone who did not say anything I wasn't sure of, I hated to be corrected and saw that as a humiliation - yes, I was wound up pretty tight.

How could phasmids and their ilk purposely develop to counter their predators and conversely how could predators adapt to them? Their brains were not advanced enough to do this on their own and mutative processes did not explain the massive diversity of these situations to a satisfactory level - what was really going on? What, then, was their motivator?

So there was my conundrum - it is here that I apply my 'ideal equation'.

How I solve this is I take both arguments separately and dismiss the evident nonsense from both sides (random evolutionary processes and scripture), when they are clear of what I have deemed junk I then set about combining the best of the concepts working under the guide line that if two sides keep bumping unresolved issues then they both have validity and there fore must both be right in some way. This is not easy to do, to chose to remove your preconceived thoughts and allow something you have dismissed to be treated with equal temperance to that which you have already chosen to believe takes patience and strong concentration to guard against preconceptions. This process takes emptying everything you know and looking at what is in front of you with a clear and untainted mind - you just allow what you see to formulate in your minds eye. You must be strict with this though or it will spiral out of control when you introduce a platform which is faulty - stick only to that which you see and use your own deductive reasoning, not anyone else's.

What I did next was take evolution, which I knew to be real, back to the beginning of life on our planet, back to the primordial soup where the only living organisms were single celled creatures, I then rebuilt evolution back to today. Interestingly I determined that if we all evolved from the single cell then essentially we are all the one entity - we are in fact just cells working for a host that is a single organism, an organism who every living entity can trace back to and discover their common ancestor, in essence we are the bio-sphere.

There was one thing that became evident - nothing wanted to die, everything struggled viciously to survive at almost any cost, what the hell was this? Why did everything desire life at any cost. Seeking an answer to this I spent a lot of time only thinking about this issue. My conclusion was that there was an embedded code within every cell.

The behavioural pattern emerging that seemed to be true for all living beings.

Survive
Expand your territory
Evolve


I went back to the start, back to the single cells, and applied this pattern to test its voracity - I feel I can say that every living entity, all through the history of evolution, is bound by this code.

So, I had the code and I understood we were the one organism called the bio-sphere.

So what is this code really, how did it get there?

The code reasonably must have been there from the very first as without it there is no reason to actually do anything at all - there is no motivation without it. The original cell we were all born from would not have done anything and just died again.

The next dilemma was how could this code be applied?

I pondered this for a long time and via deductive reasoning I was able to reason that the code was real, we were all one entity and something within our biologically engineered format was intelligently designing (before I had even heard of intelligent design by the way) advancements in our bio-structures to evolve and adapt at species level to accommodate these necessary advancements for survivals sake.

Then it dawned on me with such force as to stun me to the core - what if God were actually real but not what had previously been conjectured. What if God were the underlying energy within every cell, not seperate from us but was us. What if our individual soul were from a source, the source being the greater bio-sphere entity who purposely diversified to ensure the best means of survival. Better to have millions of species working on the problem of growth and survival than just one, this reduces vulnerability significantly - brilliant is the energy imbued within the bio-sphere.

My body physiologically experienced the eureka moment - I admit that I was blown away with the potential reality of this knowledge - I suddenly believed in God and my world significantly shifted into this new understanding of what is God and how God actually manefests in reality. No longer did I doubt the existence of God. Profound is this feeling, anybody who has surrended to the spiritual knows that of which I speak.

OK, I had a theory, this isn't enough for me so I have spent the last 10 years applying my understyanding of what we really are to the real world - it never fails to run as I determined and I have run this theory over and over exhaustively.

So here I am today, I see all living as my brothers and sisters of the bio-sphere entity, altruism and idealism have been pushed to their maximum as we all are one, I walk free of care of what anyone thinks about what I do or say and I feel I understand the reality of world systems (both biological and man made which is really just mimicry of the animal kingdoms systems) we observe and take for granted. I love openly but I am celibate and I speak the truth as I know it without fear of ridicule.

Essentially, for me, we are a part of a greater entity called the biosphere, we are imbued with the survival code ensuing our will to survive and we all enjoy a collective spiritual undercurrent that is our true selves - this spiritual undercurrent is what I refer to as God, but what I consider to be the actual God people have been misdiagnosing forever.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity and please feel free to state your case or ask questions for there is alot more to this but you guy's wont read super long posts.
__________________
"Be Buddah but with more Zen and add a healthy tablespoon of Sun Zu and Machiavelli."
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 09-20-2008, 12:21 PM
Biosphere's Avatar
Biosphere Biosphere is offline
Walk 2 roads 1 at a time
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 617
http://www.kidcyber.com.au/topics/stickie.htm

I know this is kidcyber but they had some excellent photo's of the phasmids I was talking about - you can see what I mean about the chances that this was not chance evolution.
__________________
"Be Buddah but with more Zen and add a healthy tablespoon of Sun Zu and Machiavelli."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-20-2008, 12:41 PM
Biosphere's Avatar
Biosphere Biosphere is offline
Walk 2 roads 1 at a time
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 617
http://www.jennifermarohasy.com/blog...es/002569.html

Here is some more.
__________________
"Be Buddah but with more Zen and add a healthy tablespoon of Sun Zu and Machiavelli."
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-21-2008, 02:38 AM
Biosphere's Avatar
Biosphere Biosphere is offline
Walk 2 roads 1 at a time
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 617
Bump for Argh.
__________________
"Be Buddah but with more Zen and add a healthy tablespoon of Sun Zu and Machiavelli."
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-21-2008, 03:06 AM
Keter's Avatar
Keter Keter is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: MA
Posts: 204
Quote:
if I don't believe in the omnipresent invisible man with his list of rules and I debunk common atheistic beliefs in random mutations, yet I still believe in God then how do I reconcile this in reality? What do I believe and why do I believe it?
What your describing here sounds like what Kabbalists call double concealment, you may find this video interesting lesson 14
__________________
We're all interconnected spiritually like cogwheels of nature. If we only serve ourselves instead of interconnecting in mutual understanding with others, nature will stop functioning properly. Kabbalah teaches us how to reach this interconnectedness.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-21-2008, 04:05 AM
Biosphere's Avatar
Biosphere Biosphere is offline
Walk 2 roads 1 at a time
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaballah
Double concealment is concealment inside concealment. In this state the person doesn’t even feel the opposite side of the Creator; cannot perceive anything as coming from Him. He feels that the Creator has abandoned him, disregards him completely, he attributes suffering to destiny and blind nature. Being confused by the Creator’s attitude to him, man loses faith.
I don't feel like this at all, I feel very connected to God - my soul is of God and we live together very well.
__________________
"Be Buddah but with more Zen and add a healthy tablespoon of Sun Zu and Machiavelli."
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-22-2008, 06:03 AM
ArghMonkey's Avatar
ArghMonkey ArghMonkey is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biosphere View Post
I used to be an atheist, I used to believe we were a product of chance mutations and that it was absurd to believe that God existed at all, I used to believe this and fought with dogmatic theists when they deemed it important to help me understand their faith. I was kind but it was easy to ridicule scriptures as myth - it still is in my opinion.

So, if I don't believe in the omnipresent invisible man with his list of rules and I debunk common atheistic beliefs in random mutations, yet I still believe in God then how do I reconcile this in reality? What do I believe and why do I believe it?

A friend recently asked me to elucidate that which I believe - this is that effort and any response to this thread is encouraged, even if it is to ridicule me (karma).

It has been a habit of mine since university to put myself in the shoes of the person who is arguing a point with me. If a person agreed with me the conversation would dry up after the first "exactly" comment. Being me I found this dissatisfying so I would purposely take the arguments to the counter position and present them as my own position - one day I did this and suddenly I understood why the counter point was being argued.

What? This was odd because I still believed what I thought but suddenly I could see that I was making a choice between two correct answers, I chose the answer that best suited my character. Boy did this change things up for me. Suddenly things were not black and white but trillions of shades of grey.

I applied this new methodology to everything I thought that had been unquestioned in the past. I purposely stood on the other side of the fence and argued every case against myself, this helped me change many of my predetermined belief systems and reinforce many others.

The very last one was at the fundamental level, it was:-

Why do people believe in God?

The world seemed to be in two camps on this one and what I had discovered was from arguing both sides of an argument was there were two valid sides to every question, otherwise how could they survive an argument, some would say blind faith but some people I spoke to did not seem blind at all, they seemed quite intelligent and wise.

I looked back through history and tracked spiritualism through ancient cultures from all over the world, all over the world and all through history what you find is spirituality in action - why? These cultures often had no concept of other cultures and yet fundamentally they all believed the same thing - they could connect to the spiritual and the spiritual held remarkably similar views. Every one of these cultures formed an understanding that they were spiritually connected to each other and that this spiritual self could be evil or good, they all desired good though. Altruism was rewarded and the witch doctors were to be feared and revered at the same time.

So, how could this be sustained if there was no validity at all, even with super heavyweight degree's, doctorates and endeavours of research into evolution these people believed in God despite their education?

Those who were highly educated delved into the mystical wonders that I debunked as though they lived there very comfortably indeed, and their wisdom struck me as being advanced.

Knowing this I applied myself to chose to believe what was being said to me, I was not afraid of doing this as I was rather practiced at it and knew I would revert back as soon as I found the fundamental flaw I was expecting.

There were two main issues I found that were flawed :-

On the spiritual side they had a tendency to back up their arguments with scripture written thousands of years before science was able to establish themselves, therefore they dismissed science outright - foolish and blind.

On the side of evolution they based everything on the concept of random mutation and survival of the fittest, this was fine as it was evident and yet there were circumstances when this mutative process did not explain at all certain characteristics in the biological world which made me pause to consider, things such as the co-operative behaviours of different species that were co-dependant on each other, as well as the insects and certain animals whose techniques in the fields of camouflage were too coincidental to be random developments - phasmids (stick insects) are examples of this.

I say the things above in their final form, this is not how easy it was, I had to spend years determining the validity of my conclusions, I traced back, then forward then in many different ways to different scenarios - I was someone who did not say anything I wasn't sure of, I hated to be corrected and saw that as a humiliation - yes, I was wound up pretty tight.

How could phasmids and their ilk purposely develop to counter their predators and conversely how could predators adapt to them? Their brains were not advanced enough to do this on their own and mutative processes did not explain the massive diversity of these situations to a satisfactory level - what was really going on? What, then, was their motivator?

So there was my conundrum - it is here that I apply my 'ideal equation'.

How I solve this is I take both arguments separately and dismiss the evident nonsense from both sides (random evolutionary processes and scripture), when they are clear of what I have deemed junk I then set about combining the best of the concepts working under the guide line that if two sides keep bumping unresolved issues then they both have validity and there fore must both be right in some way. This is not easy to do, to chose to remove your preconceived thoughts and allow something you have dismissed to be treated with equal temperance to that which you have already chosen to believe takes patience and strong concentration to guard against preconceptions. This process takes emptying everything you know and looking at what is in front of you with a clear and untainted mind - you just allow what you see to formulate in your minds eye. You must be strict with this though or it will spiral out of control when you introduce a platform which is faulty - stick only to that which you see and use your own deductive reasoning, not anyone else's.

What I did next was take evolution, which I knew to be real, back to the beginning of life on our planet, back to the primordial soup where the only living organisms were single celled creatures, I then rebuilt evolution back to today. Interestingly I determined that if we all evolved from the single cell then essentially we are all the one entity - we are in fact just cells working for a host that is a single organism, an organism who every living entity can trace back to and discover their common ancestor, in essence we are the bio-sphere.

There was one thing that became evident - nothing wanted to die, everything struggled viciously to survive at almost any cost, what the hell was this? Why did everything desire life at any cost. Seeking an answer to this I spent a lot of time only thinking about this issue. My conclusion was that there was an embedded code within every cell.

The behavioural pattern emerging that seemed to be true for all living beings.

Survive
Expand your territory
Evolve


I went back to the start, back to the single cells, and applied this pattern to test its voracity - I feel I can say that every living entity, all through the history of evolution, is bound by this code.

So, I had the code and I understood we were the one organism called the bio-sphere.

So what is this code really, how did it get there?

The code reasonably must have been there from the very first as without it there is no reason to actually do anything at all - there is no motivation without it. The original cell we were all born from would not have done anything and just died again.

The next dilemma was how could this code be applied?

I pondered this for a long time and via deductive reasoning I was able to reason that the code was real, we were all one entity and something within our biologically engineered format was intelligently designing (before I had even heard of intelligent design by the way) advancements in our bio-structures to evolve and adapt at species level to accommodate these necessary advancements for survivals sake.

Then it dawned on me with such force as to stun me to the core - what if God were actually real but not what had previously been conjectured. What if God were the underlying energy within every cell, not seperate from us but was us. What if our individual soul were from a source, the source being the greater bio-sphere entity who purposely diversified to ensure the best means of survival. Better to have millions of species working on the problem of growth and survival than just one, this reduces vulnerability significantly - brilliant is the energy imbued within the bio-sphere.

My body physiologically experienced the eureka moment - I admit that I was blown away with the potential reality of this knowledge - I suddenly believed in God and my world significantly shifted into this new understanding of what is God and how God actually manefests in reality. No longer did I doubt the existence of God. Profound is this feeling, anybody who has surrended to the spiritual knows that of which I speak.

OK, I had a theory, this isn't enough for me so I have spent the last 10 years applying my understyanding of what we really are to the real world - it never fails to run as I determined and I have run this theory over and over exhaustively.

So here I am today, I see all living as my brothers and sisters of the bio-sphere entity, altruism and idealism have been pushed to their maximum as we all are one, I walk free of care of what anyone thinks about what I do or say and I feel I understand the reality of world systems (both biological and man made which is really just mimicry of the animal kingdoms systems) we observe and take for granted. I love openly but I am celibate and I speak the truth as I know it without fear of ridicule.

Essentially, for me, we are a part of a greater entity called the biosphere, we are imbued with the survival code ensuing our will to survive and we all enjoy a collective spiritual undercurrent that is our true selves - this spiritual undercurrent is what I refer to as God, but what I consider to be the actual God people have been misdiagnosing forever.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity and please feel free to state your case or ask questions for there is alot more to this but you guy's wont read super long posts.
Your my kind of people Biosphere ...

I tend to be less interesting in my explanations but I dont see much wrong with what your saying, god is life itself or god is existence itself etc, if I called my wonder at the world and at life "god" I could be there with you, a lot of this is decided on what we want to call god, some ppl stress its a supernatural being, some say its some force, an unseen hand, *shrug*, I think when in doubt pick the answer thats the most obvious, so for the definition that most ppl use I dont believe in any god, do I think there are mysteries? absolutely! am I in awe of the universe and the life itself? you bet!

This reminds me of the regular conversation I have with different buddhists, when we get to the subject of reincarnation, I point out that im not religious, Im not a buddhist but in a way there is reincarnation, what I am is made up of other things and I will end up as part of something else, of course buddhists probably incorporated the concept from other observations throughout time of eating and then being eaten but I guess what im saying is its all down to definition, I dont agree exactly with what your saying but theres lots I dont know.

More to come later
__________________
**************
*************************

Dragon busted on his lies ... HERE!

**
*******
**************
*******
**

"I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's - Mark Twain

*************************
**************
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-22-2008, 06:31 AM
Biosphere's Avatar
Biosphere Biosphere is offline
Walk 2 roads 1 at a time
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argh
This reminds me of the regular conversation I have with different buddhists, when we get to the subject of reincarnation, I point out that im not religious, Im not a buddhist but in a way there is reincarnation, what I am is made up of other things and I will end up as part of something else
Thanks for the comments Argh, I find what you said here interesting. I started to think about this some time ago and thought that if my understanding of God was real then I imagined there would be like an ocean of energy from which we come and go from. When we are born we are essentially given a droplet of this energy to function as the bio-engineered shell's soul, the responsibility of this soul (which is born blank by the way, a blank canvas for us to create our art of life upon) was to survive, expand its territory and evolve as a human being (or ant or three toed sloth). So this new soul works its way into the world and as it matures it learns different ways to survive or develops mathematics or whatever it chooses to. When this bio-shell dies the soul droplet is released back into the ocean and the information it had garnered was shared with the greater energy and there by increasing the overall understanding of the bio-spheres knowledge base. Just a concept really as who bloody knows what the hell happens when you die - no-one has come back to tell us so it can only be conjecture really.
__________________
"Be Buddah but with more Zen and add a healthy tablespoon of Sun Zu and Machiavelli."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-22-2008, 04:30 PM
QUEST? QUEST? is offline
sailor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: long island n.y.
Posts: 655
be careful that you do not base your understanding of God upon a misinterpretation of what evolution is. You claim to be well-educated, but you do not seem to really understand the random nature and the survival of the fittest that explains evolution very nicely. The problem with the God concept is that it is an absolutely unprovable idea and is based upon emotion only. I would have no quarrel with somebody claiming a belief in God, but you seem to be basing your belief upon erroneous concepts.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-22-2008, 04:44 PM
Biosphere's Avatar
Biosphere Biosphere is offline
Walk 2 roads 1 at a time
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by QUEST? View Post
be careful that you do not base your understanding of God upon a misinterpretation of what evolution is. You claim to be well-educated, but you do not seem to really understand the random nature and the survival of the fittest that explains evolution very nicely. The problem with the God concept is that it is an absolutely unprovable idea and is based upon emotion only. I would have no quarrel with somebody claiming a belief in God, but you seem to be basing your belief upon erroneous concepts.
Thanks for the advice Quest.

I do have issue with the single concept within the evolutionary process which both you and Symptom allude - that is it seems to me that you believe there is a function that was accidently generated somewhere in 'life on earth' history, this function was kept through natural selection and has been an active and purposeful mainstay ever since, this function gives us the 'will' to survive, extend our territory and to evolve.

How can this function be explained via evolutionary process?
__________________
"Be Buddah but with more Zen and add a healthy tablespoon of Sun Zu and Machiavelli."
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-22-2008, 04:52 PM
JB21 JB21 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 745
being conscious to belong to truth do not mean that we are the truth or for or from

being conscious to belong to truth do only mean that truth is and if we are interested in in being from we should act as dogs infront
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-22-2008, 04:54 PM
JB21 JB21 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 745
and if one dont want to act that cheap than one must act for his peace being none
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-22-2008, 04:58 PM
JB21 JB21 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 745
dogs go to god that make them pay for what he gives which make it fake giving

and real honoroble conscious seek for natural justice to their bodies and souls
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-22-2008, 05:35 PM
Biosphere's Avatar
Biosphere Biosphere is offline
Walk 2 roads 1 at a time
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 617
Ooooooo......k.

*backs away until comes to doorway....then turns and runs very fast*
__________________
"Be Buddah but with more Zen and add a healthy tablespoon of Sun Zu and Machiavelli."
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-22-2008, 06:19 PM
JB21 JB21 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 745
how dare you

i always face what i have to and you are the one who runs to the mouth that would allow you to eat some rest on the beast teeth
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do you believe in miracles? (aka Atheists are idiots) Mike Dubbeld Religion 193 09-17-2008 05:40 AM
universe have a creator Saudhoon Religion 31 10-04-2007 04:59 AM
The Paradox Of Nothingness And The Case For The New Deism AlumnodeVerum Religion 17 08-01-2007 12:35 AM
Maxims of Equity. TruthInArt Religion 26 11-28-2005 03:13 AM
Has religion made useful contributions to civilization? lautremont Religion 33 01-31-2004 06:15 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:31 PM.



Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright 2000-2008 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Hosted and Maintained by The IceStorm Network