Pakistani child rape gangs in the UK

PoseidonsNet · Jan 9, 2012

I would suggest you get out into the real world
instead of trawling the internet for bugbears to squash.

Get real.
That is, deal with real issues in your real life.

Why not start a thread like
'Britain is not white anymore'
wawawawawa

that is your real agenda,
after all,
that is clear

Meme Virus · Jan 9, 2012

First, PN, let me point out to you the utterly absurd illogicality of spewing insulting vitreol on here and then whining because people don't like you. You're your own worst enemy. Perhaps you need the drama in your life because being long-term unemployed, you're bored as heck and need some stimulation. You've suggested that in another thread. But don't project your problems onto others. And you have made absolutely no attempt to understand what I'm saying here. You simply want to interpret things in a paranoid way and then get abusive. You're old enough to have picked up the lesson that it helps a lot if you actually try to understand what the other person is saying and why before voicing your opinion. In future, I'd be grateful if you would make an attempt to do so.

You're just deliberately being offensive and You simply are not making any attempt to get to grips with the actual arguments I've put forward. If you actually read what I wrote, - and believe me, that would be a very good start indeed, because it does seem that you simply haven't, - you'll get a much clearer idea of what I'm saying and why.

Still, it might be worth clarifying anyhow. I'm saying it's a cultural issue, not a race issue. The culture a lot of these men come from seems to make rape more acceptable, and I've quoted several articles that seem to demonstrate that. I'm not saying that being Pakistani makes you more likely to rape someone; not at all. I'm simply saying there's a toxic culture that a lot of people from there seem to be brought up in that means anyone growing up in it might well come to think raping teenagers is acceptable.

Please, please read what I have actually written before making any more insulting comments. Try to understand the actual arguments I've put forward and understand exactly what opinions I hold and why. You're neither doing yourself or anyone else any favours by just jumping to the worst conclusions and then spewing out insults in response to your own thoughts.

As for your claims about New Zealand, I'm extremely skeptical you're telling the truth or have your facts right. ... Let's have a quick check. ... Ah yes, here's an article: New Zealand Seeks Causes of Suicides by Young

It seems there is indeed a tragically higher-than-average suicide rate among teenagers in New Zealand, but not a word about the causes being anything to do with sodomy. At least, you have to twist things rather a lot to make the idea fit. But then that wouldn't be new for you, it seems.

... Still, the question is why teen-agers in a country otherwise so blessed would become suicidal in the first place. Psychiatrists and others who study the question say that to a degree unknown in many Western countries, young men here are brought up to believe that they must excel in school and sports -- particularly rugby, the violent sport that is a national obsession -- and that they must never give vent to their emotions, even to family members.

Gay teen-agers are said to suffer especially, and psychiatrists say many of the suicides of young men result from confusion over their sexuality.

Adam Hiron, 17, a volunteer at Kidsline, a crisis-intervention phone line for teen-agers in Auckland, recalled one boy who was pulled out of school by his family because of merciless taunting he suffered from other students. The youth was poor in sports and slightly effeminate.

"He threw a ball like a girl does, and the hassling just wouldn't stop," Mr. Hiron said. "He was hassled nonstop from the day he got to that school until the day he left." ...

It seems it was the bullying that was the issue, though perhaps you'd like to claim it was the fact he might have been interested in sodomy, because of your known rabid anti-gay prejudices.

--------------

Back to the topic though, one of the articles I quoted yesterday, Victim groomed by 'evil' Derby sex gang quotes the founder of a charity set up to try to stop young girls being groomed for sex as saying, shockingly:

"I think it is really widespread - there's 40-plus projects up and down the UK that are dealing with this issue.

"Many of them find young people are seriously damaged."

Forty or more?! There must be a heck of a lot of this stuff going on!!

Meme Virus · Jan 11, 2012

I'm going to re-post what was supposed to be at the beginning of this thread but had a mishap and ended up near the end of page 1 in relative obscurity. It deserves to be in a more prominent place:

There was a programme last Monday night on Channel 4 (UK) called Britain's Sex Gangs, about groups of Pakistani men who systematically gang rape children who are just about entering puberty. Here's the page about the programme, where there's also a link to watch it. They choose their victims, who are often twelve or eleven years old; Pakistani teenagers will sometimes befriend them, giving them lots of compliments to make them want to be around them. They chat to the girls and ask for their personal details such as where they live, their phone number and Facebook account and so on, and because the girls have built up some trust in them, they happily tell them.

Then older men - often the relatives of those sent out to befriend the victims - can be introduced into the group and start offering the girls drink and drugs. They can take them to nice places they wouldn't normally go to until they were older. They give them presents and flatter them a lot - basically going on a charm offensive, that's cynically deliberately designed to make the girls fall in love with them or become emotionally attached to them. It's called grooming. A lot of girls fall for it. Often the men will give them a mobile phone, supposedly as a gift, but then they use it to find out where they are at any given time, so they can send their friends in to find them and harm them, often in exchange for favours or money.

The girls, at first unaware of their real intentions, can feel flattered by the attention and all the compliments and nice gifts they get showered with by them. Also, the Pakistani men often do their best to convince the girls to despise their parents, saying they're only being racist if they're concerned about what the girls are doing. That way, the girls won't take their parents' concerns so seriously; and also if they despise their parents, they won't be so willing to turn to them when they're distressed, as they soon will be. Lots of the girls come from state care though, so they haven't got loving parents checking up on them.

A lot of the girls start thinking of a man as their boyfriend. Then their trust is horribly betrayed.

When the girls have grown attached to the men so they're less likely to want to run off to the police, the men start gang raping them. Sometimes they attack them from the start; but sometimes they can at first just put subtle pressure on the girls to have sex with them for a while, giving them the impression it's normal behaviour and anyone who doesn't do it's a bit weird. When the girls give in, more and more men have sex with them.

The men sell them to other Pakistani men, phoning them up, telling them what each girl looks like and offering a price for them. Younger ones go for more, apparently, and virgins can fetch the highest price.

One reason for their particular liking for raping virgins is that a lot of these rapists are married to Muslim women who've been brought from Pakistan to Britain to marry them in arranged marriages - probably as a way of getting more Pakistanis into the country. They often don't have anything in common with their wives and might not even be able to speak the language they speak. So they don't develop a view of marriage as between people who love each other, but they want to carry on raping without bringing diseases home to their wives, so raping virgins or children is the best bet, they think. Also, a man from the Pakistani community said on the programme that they preferred them because "the tighter the hole the greater the pleasure".

Sometimes they kidnap and imprison the girls and send men in to rape them. But often the girls will keep going back to meet them day after day of their own accord even though they're going to be gang raped, because they get threatened with violence if they don't or their family gets threatened. A young woman on the programme who'd been attacked a decade ago when she was twelve by Pakistani men who had befriended her and who she'd grown attached to threatened her with a hammer a couple of times, and she was scared that since they knew where she lived, they might go and rape her mother if she didn't keep going back to them. And they would punish her if she said she didn't want sex with them; once they dragged her into an alley and anally raped her to punish her. So she always thought it would be better just to do what they wanted. Then when she did finally go to the police, for whatever reason, the men were never charged with anything. They remained free to rape and rape again!

Some of the gang rapists have been prosecuted, but only a minority. The police claim that it's difficult to get evidence that actual harm is being done, rather than that these girls are just going and participating in group sex with them. But one wonders how hard they've tried to get evidence or whether they've used all the methods they have at their disposal.

I decided to find out more information about this kind of thing, so I looked around on the Internet.

Here's an article about the gang rapists: Gangs, Girls and Grooming: The Truth

... Rotherham, along with many other towns, cities and villages in northern England has become infected with the vile activities of criminal gangs using children as currency. While child sexual abuse occurs in every community and culture, what is happening in Rotherham and elsewhere in Yorkshire and Lancashire is organised pimping of girls by Asian gangs who trade their victims for cash and favours.

"These men all know and trust each other," says Jane, the mother of one of the victims. "They don't abuse these girls because they are Muslim, but because they are criminals who think they are above the law."

Although there is no hard evidence of financial gain in the Rotherham case, child protection professionals tell me that the pattern in such cases is that the girls are traded for cash as well as favours between criminals. A number of the gangs operating in the region have found that the sharp drop in the price of drugs has led them to losing considerable income, and that selling girls is increasingly filling the gap.

Jane's daughter Sophie (not their real names) was a happy, ordinary 12-year-old until she met a group of adult males who would control every aspect of her life. Before she escaped, a year later, Sophie had been raped by the gang members as a way of "breaking her in" and then passed around various other men for sex.

The methods used by the pimps are sophisticated and sinister. First, the girls are identified in locations, such as parks, schools, leisure facilities and shopping malls after which boys of their age are sent to befriend them. After a friendship is established, the boys introduce their contacts to young men whom they often describe as cousins.

Then the grooming process gets really under way. The young man will take the girl out in his car, give her vodka, cigarettes and cannabis, and take her to venues she would not normally experience until older.

Often giving the girl a mobile telephone as a "gift", the pimp is then able to track her every move by calls and texting, which eventually will be used by him to send instructions as to details of arrangements with punters. The men sell the girls on to contacts for around £200 a time or as currency for a business deal. "I was always asked why I kept going back to my pimp," says Sophie, "but they flatter you and make you think you are really loved. I thought he was my boyfriend until it was too late to get away." Another tactic of the pimp is getting the girl to despise and mistrust her own parents in order that he can achieve total control over her. The pimps routinely tell their victims that their parents are racist towards Asian people and that they disapprove of the relationships because the men are of Pakistani Muslim heritage, not because they are older. ...

Emma Jackson knows exactly how the pimping gangs operate in Rotherham because she was also a victim of one. When Emma was 12, she was befriended by Asian boys around her own age who soon introduced her to relatives in their twenties and thirties.

Emma had no idea she was being groomed and brainwashed until one day, totally out of the blue, she was taken to wasteland and raped by the gang leader. The attack was watched by laughing gang members and recorded on a number of mobile phones.

"People ask me why I kept going back to Tarik, even after he raped me," says Emma, "but he threatened to firebomb my home and rape my own mother if I tried to escape."

Emma now gives support, through a charity set up to prevent the sexual abuse of children, to a number of victims of pimping gangs and has found that the girls are being targeted at an even younger age. ...

Meme Virus · Jan 11, 2012

More from the article Gangs, Girls and Grooming: The Truth

When I first wrote about the issue of Asian grooming gangs in 2007, my name was included on the website Islamophobia Watch: Documenting anti-Muslim Bigotry. So was that of Ann Cryer, the former Labour MP for Keighley in Yorkshire, who had been at the forefront of attempting to tackle the problem, after receiving requests for help from some of the parents of children caught up with the gangs in her constituency.

According to some of the mothers, a fear of being branded racist makes many of the police and social services reluctant to investigate the crimes as organised and connected. One mother from Rotherham, whose 14-year-old daughter was groomed into prostitution and multiple raped during a 12-month period, told me that almost every man convicted of these crimes in the north of England is from Pakistan but that the authorities insist that it is not relevant.

There are, however, a growing number of individuals within the Muslim communities who are willing to speak out against the criminals. Mohammed Shafiq, the director of the Lancashire-based Ramadhan Foundation, a charity working for peaceful harmony between different ethnic communities, advocates better education about sexual exploitation to be disseminated through imams and other community leaders.

"I was one of the first within the Muslim community to speak out about this, four years ago," says Shafiq, "and at the time I received death threats from some black and Asian people. But what I said has been proved right — that if we didn't tackle it there would be more of these abusers and more girls getting harmed."

Shafiq says he is "disgusted" to hear some perpetrators refer to their victims as "white trash". He adds: "I say to them, would you treat your sister or daughter like this?"

This isn't just happening in Britain. It's happening all over the Western world where Pakistani men have immigrated. And not just Pakistanis, but Muslims from Arab countries. Women are being gang raped by people from Muslim countries in France, Norway, Sweden, Australia and other places.

Some people would like to think this has nothing to do with their culture, but it does. Their culture teaches them that women are second-class citizens; that women who don't dress and act demurely are loose and it's OK to rape or even kill them. Here are some articles about it, one from Amnesty International. It does absolutely no good for the authorities to pretend that Pakistani and Arab Muslim culture has nothing to do with the epidemic of gang raping that young men from these communities are doing, because if they're going to address this properly, they need to address the root causes. They need to be honest about what those are, rather than shrinking from them for fear of being seen as racist or for fear of provoking racial hatred. The way to play into the hands of the extremists most is by not dealing with this. That's because if people become more and more upset, frustrated and hopeless about this situation because it seems the authorities are letting far too many of these perverts off the hook, they may well feel they have no one to turn to for help but the extremists. The extremists may be the only ones who promise they can do something about it. I don't know if they've made such a promise yet, but they might.

The Channel 4 programme last Monday night raised the concern that the authorities such as police and social services were trying to keep this quiet because they feared appearing to be racist or stirring up racial hatred if it was revealed that these gangs are almost always Pakistani. This isn't the first time concerns have been raised about the authorities wanting to keep the matter quiet for fear of what'll happen if they raise the issue of the ethnicity of these gangs. Way back in January - and the issue had been a controversial one for much longer than that - newspapers were protesting the "culture of silence", for instance in an article called Top detective blasts 'culture of silence' that allows Asian sex gangs to groom white girls... because police and social services fear being branded racist

Police and social services have been accused of fuelling a culture of silence which has allowed hundreds of young white girls to be exploited by Asian men for sex.

Agencies have identified a long-term pattern of offending by gangs of men, predominantly from the British Pakistani community, who have befriended and abused hundreds of vulnerable girls aged 11 to 16.

Experts claim the statistics represent a mere fraction of a 'tidal wave' of offending in counties across the Midlands and the north of England which has been going on for more than a decade.

A senior officer at West Mercia police has called for an end to the 'damaging taboo' connecting on-street grooming with race.

Detective Chief Inspector Alan Edwards said: 'These girls are being passed around and used as meat. ...

'To stop this type of crime you need to start everyone talking about it but everyone's been too scared to address the ethnicity factor.

'No one wants to stand up and say that Pakistani guys in some parts of the country are recruiting young white girls and passing them around their relatives for sex, but we need to stop being worried about the racial complication.'

In a briefing paper, researchers at University College London's Jill Dando Institute of Security and Crime Science concurred that victims were typically white girls while 'most central offenders are Pakistani'. ...

In a typical scenario, the victim is initially treated as a girlfriend and showered with presents and attention.

But the relationship quickly becomes more sinister as the abuser plies the child with drink and drugs before effectively pimping her out to friends and associates.

The worst cases involve young girls being moved around the country to be repeatedly abused.

Charities and agencies working in conjunction with the police to help victims of sexual abuse in such cases have publicly denied there is a link between ethnicity and the on-street grooming of young girls by gangs and pimps.

But researchers identified 17 court prosecutions since 1997, 14 of them in the past three years, involving the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by groups of men.

The victims came from 13 towns and cities and in each case two or more men were convicted of offences.

In total, 56 people, with an average age of 28, were found guilty of crimes including rape, child abduction, indecent assault and sex with a child.

Three of the 56 were white, 53 were Asian. Of those, 50 were Muslim and a majority were members of the British Pakistani community.

Those convicted allegedly represent only a small proportion of what one detective called a ‘tidal wave’ of offending in Yorkshire, Lancashire, Greater Manchester and the Midlands.

Meme Virus · Jan 11, 2012

Since it's quite likely that the attitudes of these rapists have quite a bit to do with the cultural background they've been raised in, it is essential that the authorities make more efforts to understand it. Ideas about how it would be a great shame to ruin ideals of multi-cultural harmony and political correctness need to be put aside as sincere efforts are made to understand where these rapists develop their attitudes, and thus how best to challenge them. There may be people from the Pakistani community willing to discuss what they know about what goes on in the minds of these men with the authorities; but there is also a lot of background information available, like these articles, for example.

From an article by Amnesty International called Pakistan: Honour Killings of Women and Girls

"The right to life of women in Pakistan is conditional on their obeying social norms and traditions."
Hina Jilani, lawyer and human rights activist

Women in Pakistan live in fear. They face death by shooting, burning or killing with axes if they are deemed to have brought shame on the family. They are killed for supposed 'illicit' relationships, for marrying men of their choice, for divorcing abusive husbands. They are even murdered by their kin if they are raped as they are thereby deemed to have brought shame on their family. The truth of the suspicion does not matter -- merely the allegation is enough to bring dishonour on the family and therefore justifies the slaying.

The lives of millions of women in Pakistan are circumscribed by traditions which enforce extreme seclusion and submission to men. Male relatives virtually own them and punish contraventions of their proprietary control with violence. For the most part, women bear traditional male control over every aspect of their bodies, speech and behaviour with stoicism, as part of their fate, but exposure to media, the work of women's groups and a greater degree of mobility have seen the beginnings of women's rights awareness seep into the secluded world of women. But if women begin to assert their rights, however tentatively, the response is harsh and immediate: the curve of honour killings has risen parallel to the rise in awareness of rights.

Every year hundreds of women are known to die as a result of honour killings. Many more cases go unreported and almost all go unpunished. The isolation and fear of women living under such threats are compounded by state indifference to and complicity in women's oppression. Police almost invariably take the man's side in honour killings or domestic murders, and rarely prosecute the killers. Even when the men are convicted, the judiciary ensures that they usually receive a light sentence, reinforcing the view that men can kill their female relatives with virtual impunity. Specific laws hamper redress as they discriminate against women.

The isolation of women is completed by the almost total absence of anywhere to hide. There are few women's shelters, and any woman attempting to travel on her own is a target for abuse by police, strangers or male relatives hunting for her. For some women suicide appears the only means of escape. ...

For a woman to be targeted for killing in the name of honour, her consent -- or the lack of consent -- in an action considered shameful is irrelevant to the guardians of honour. Consequently, a woman brings shame on her family if she is raped.

In March 1999 a 16-year-old mentally retarded girl, Lal Jamilla Mandokhel, was reportedly raped several times by a junior clerk of the local government department of agriculture in a hotel in Parachinar, North West Frontier Province. The girl's uncle filed a complaint about the incident with police who took the accused into protective custody but handed over the girl to her tribe, the Mazuzai in the Kurram Agency. A jirga of Pathan tribesmen decided that she had brought shame to her tribe and that the honour could only be restored by her death. She was shot dead in front of a tribal gathering.

Nafisa Shah reports that women who expose rape and thereby dishonour their men are particularly vulnerable. Arbab Khatoon, raped by three men in a village in Jacobabad district, reportedly lodged a complaint with police. She was murdered seven hours later. According to local residents, she was killed by her relatives for bringing dishonour to the family by going to the police.

An article on a United Nations website called Pakistani rape survivor turned education crusader honored at UN says:

2 May 2006 – Muktar Mai, a Pakistani woman who became a world-renown education and women’s rights activist after she was gang raped as clan vengeance in her native village for crimes allegedly committed by her brother, spoke at United Nations Headquarters in New York today, drawing praise from UN officials for her bravery.

“I think it is fair to say that anyone who has the moral courage and internal strength to turn such a brutal attack into a weapon to defend others in a similar position, is a hero indeed, and is worthy of our deepest respect and admiration,” Under-Secretary-General for Communications Shashi Tharoor said in introducing Ms. Mukhtar, who was invited to the UN by Secretary-General Kofi Annan and Pakistan’s UN Mission.

Mr. Tharoor said that after the horrific crime, which occurred in 2002 in a rural village called Meerwala, Ms. Mukhtar refused to be cowed by traditional strictures under which she was expected to commit suicide out of shame. Instead, with the support of her immediate family, her Imam and some journalists, she took steps to ensure the full force of the law was levied against her attackers. ...

Questioned by Ms. O’Brian and the audience at the UN meeting room, Ms. Mukhtar explained the importance of education for woman’s rights. “When [I was pursuing justice], the uneducated people tried to stop me and the educated people supported me. So I thought education was important,” the soft-spoken woman said through an interpreter.

“My slogan is: ‘End oppression with education,’” she added, noting that after her efforts in her rural village, attitudes there have changed quite dramatically.

Unfortunately, that woman may have since suffered tragedy, and her impression of changes in attitude may have been over-optimistic. A Reuters article called Pakistani rape victim fears silence after acquittal says:

MEERAWALI, Pakistan | Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:51pm EDT
(Reuters) - A Pakistani woman who was gang-raped and became a human rights campaigner says she worries other women will not speak out after Pakistan's highest court upheld her alleged attackers' acquittals.

Mukhtaran Mai was allegedly gang-raped in 2002 to settle a matter of village honor. Unlike most rape victims in Pakistan, who rarely speak up, she filed a criminal case against 14 men. Six were convicted and sentenced to death later that year.

But the Lahore High court later acquitted five and commuted one sentence to life in prison in 2005. On Thursday, Pakistan's Supreme Court upheld the Lahore court's decision.

She said the verdict could prevent other women from speaking out against Pakistan's culture of punishing women through violence, mutilation and sexual assault.

"I feel now women will not speak out," she told Reuters. "They will stay in their homes ... Other women will not speak out because people in their area will look on them badly and they will not get justice."

But, she said, "it becomes like a chain -- if one woman gets justice, then the others will."

Pakistani women rarely speak out after violent assault or rape, fearing the shame it will bring on them and their families. Her decision to speak out has earned her widespread recognition. She was named Glamour magazine's 2005 woman of the year and her autobiography at one point was the number three bestseller in France.

The ruling by Pakistan's Supreme Court means all but one of the 14 men charged with attacking her in 2002 could soon be free, allowing them to return to the village of Meerawali in southern Punjab where Mai lives.

"I am frightened the men will come back to this area and that I will be killed," Mai, 39, said." ...

Mai says she was attacked in 2002 as a punishment because her brother -- who was 12 at the time -- was judged to have offended the honor of a powerful clan by allegedly having an affair with one of its women.

Meme Virus · Jan 11, 2012

The Daily Mail is certainly not renowned for objective reporting. But this article is in line with what the others say: Family of gang-raped Pakistani girl, 17, defies tradition of honour killing to fight for justice

A 17-year-old Pakistani girl is fighting for her life and justice claiming she was kidnapped for three days and gang-raped by four men.

Kainat Soomro says her life is now under threat as Pakistan tradition dictates that women who lose their virginity before they are married can be subjected to an 'honour-killing' for bringing shame and dishonour on the family.

However, her parents are refusing to allow her to be killed. They have received death threats for supporting their daughter and their new home in Karachi has been attacked by protesters. ...

Kainat's family said tribal elders have branded her a black female - a kari - for losing her virginity out of wedlock.

Speaking of the threat to her life in her story which featured in The Atlantic she said: 'It is the tradition, but if the family doesn't permit it, then it won't happen.'

The teenager said she was attacked in Mehar, a small town in Pakistan in 2007, when she was walking home from school.

Recalling the incident four years ago she said she stopped at a local shop to buy a toy for her niece when a man pressed a handkerchief on her nose.

She said it was at this point she fainted, was kidnapped and then raped by four men but finally escaped after three days.

Her father said he had tried to get the alleged rapists arrested but was stopped by police. ...

Why would Pakistanis who move to this country think women here deserve fairer treatment than women in Pakistan? Of course they won't, though it may be that a lot don't agree with the tradition of killing women for being raped. Children need to be educated to respect women from a young age.

Numbers of gang rapes by men from Muslim cultures are apparently rising in many Western countries. And many apparently justify their actions on religious or cultural grounds. There was a case in Australia a few years ago where one man who'd raped several girls along with his brothers claimed he'd done it because of the cultural beliefs he'd had at the time and a psychotic illness. He was found to have lied about other things, so how much of what he said can be believed is uncertain. But from an article called Gang rapist claims right to assault

THE eldest of four Pakistani gang rapist brothers has admitted lying at trial and apologised to his victims but said he thought he had a right to rape the "promiscuous" teenage girls.

MSK, 27, told the NSW Supreme Court yesterday that this was because the girls did not wear headscarves, were drinking alcohol and were unaccompanied when they went to his Ashfield home. MSK also blamed his intoxication, "cultural beliefs" and an undiagnosed mental disorder.

He and his brothers MAK, 25, MRK, 21, and MMK, 19 - who cannot be named for legal reasons - are serving between 10 and 22 years for raping two girls in 2002. All except MRK are yet to be sentenced for several other rapes.

Yesterday evidence was being heard on a sentence for MSK for the rapes of two more girls, TW, then 14, and CH, then 13. He admitted that some of the evidence he had given at an earlier trial was fabricated, particularly that he had had consensual sex with TW and that she had coaxed him.

"It was a pretty big untruth when you said that it was consensual sex, wasn't it?" asked the Crown prosecutor, Ken McKay.

"Yes," he replied.

You chose to lie about that, correct? - Yes.

During a long apology to TW, who was in court, he stopped mid-sentence to reprimand her.

"I wish to say this to [TW], that at the time when I commit these offences I come from such a background which led me to - don't shake your head, I'm telling you something - I say now that I hurt you and I'm extremely, extremely apologetic to you and I'm, I wish to say one thing more.

"I'm serving 22 years … I'm just requesting to you that you one day may come that you realise that the person who assaulted me is in prison … and I should forgive him. I'm asking for your forgiveness." He said it was only now, since he had gained a "better understanding of Australian culture", that he knew the rapes were wrong.

He arrived in Sydney for the ninth and final time four days before committing several rapes over six months. He had planned to study medicine.

He agreed he knew the girls did not want to have sex. "[TW] said no but I go ahead with it because I believe that at the time I commit these offences, I believe that she was promiscuous …" he said. "She don't know us, I don't know her, like she was not related to us and she was not wearing any purdah … like she was not … covered her face, she was not wearing any headscarf and she started drinking with us and she was singing. ...

Meme Virus · Jan 11, 2012

The article I quoted at the end of my last post suggests that white women who don't cover their heads are just bound to be at more risk from being raped by these Muslim men than Muslim women who are veiled. However, in the Channel 4 programme, someone was asked why the vast majority of girls these Pakistani young men picked on and raped were white. He explained that the Pakistani men would be living in communities where everyone knew who they were. If they attacked Pakistani girls, everyone would know it was them, so they'd be more likely to suffer consequences for it.

But it seems that it may also be that white girls who don't have traditions of segregating themselves from boys but are quite willing to talk to them, and who don't cover their heads, both of which go against Pakistani traditions, are automatically seen as lesser beings or more promiscuous by some. A young woman at the beginning of the Channel 4 programme Britain's Sex Gangs said that ten years ago when she was twelve, she and a friend of hers had at first been befriended by fourteen-year-old Pakistani boys who seemed nice. She'd started thinking of them as good friends. Then they introduced her and her friend to older men who were nice to them. They would give them alcohol and cannabis. Teenagers tend to be easily led and want to try new things, especially things they wouldn't normally get to try till they were older. So it's no surprise she was willing to participate. She wasn't even a teenager - she was twelve!

Then one day she remarked that she was cold. One of the Pakistani men said he'd warm her up. He put his arms around her and pushed her forward. Then she was attacked by several of them. She was held down while one put his penis in her mouth, and another one ripped her trousers off and then got on top of her and raped her. She was crying. Her friend was forced to watch by another one. Her friend told her not to cry, so she started thinking that perhaps what was happening to her was just the normal way girls lose their virginity.

She was still upset when after months of rape, the man who'd been really nice to her at first said he was fed up of her and was never going to see her again. He said, "I'd used you; now I'm going to abuse you". He called her a "white slag" which was a bit of a cheek considering he was the one who'd taken her virginity.

I was once on a ridiculous course where an Indian tutor claimed that the reason for the high number of rapes carried out by Asian men was that their parents had strict rules about them not having sex in their homes so there was nowhere they could go to have normal sexual relations. Something about that statement seemed rather illogical. If those men really just want sex, why don't they have sex in the same places as they rape people in? - They don't seem to have difficulty finding places to do that! Obviously there's more to it.

And of course, in Pakistan, non-Muslims are commonly seen as the infidel and worthy of contempt and abuse. Those who deconvert from Islam can still receive the death penalty. It's just a totally different culture. I think a lot of men in Pakistan consider it their right to punish anyone who challenges or violates the teachings of Islam. Such people are certainly mistreated. An article called Rapes of Christian Girls in Pakistan Reflect Hidden Trend says:

Sexual assault by Muslim extremists is commonplace but rarely reported. FAROOQABAD, Pakistan, August 16 (CDN) — The vulnerability of Christian girls to sexual assault in Pakistani society emerged again last month as a Muslim landowner allegedly targeted a 16-year-old and a gang of madrassa (Islamic school) students allegedly abused a 12-year-old in Punjab Province.

In Farooqabad, Shiekhupura district, three Muslim co-workers of a Christian man allegedly raped his 16-year-old daughter at gunpoint the night of July 21; the following evening in Gujar Khan, Rawalpindi district, more than a half dozen madrassa students decided to “teach these Christians a lesson” by allegedly gang-raping the 12-year-old girl.

The students at Jamia Islamia Madrassa had been harassing Christians in the villages around Gujar Khan, said the pastor of the church to which the girl’s family belongs, United Pentecostal Church.

“They openly announce that ‘the Christians are our enemies, we should not talk to them, eat with them or do business with them,’” Pastor Shakeel Javed told Compass.

The students often beat Christian children who come to play on the school grounds, telling them to convert or leave, he said, adding that on Sundays they throw stones at the church building.

A school teacher who said she was witness to the alleged rape told Compass that when she came across the madrassa students the evening of July 22, she overheard one saying, “We will teach these Christians a lesson they will never forget.”

“Three or four Christian girls were washing dishes near a pond,” Rana Aftab said. “These guys ran towards them, and the girls started running. One of them fell on the ground, and these madrassa students got hold of her and took her in the fields. I tried to stop them, but they were 15-16 in number.”

Seven or eight of them raped the girl, whose name is withheld, while the others looked on, Aftab said.

“She kept yelling for help, but no one heard her cries,” Aftab said.

They left the girl in the field, and some villages took her home to her father, Pervaiz Masih, Aftab said.

Masih was devastated, and the girl’s mother fainted when she saw her, Masih told Compass.

Masih and Aftab went to the police station to register a complaint, but the officer in charge refused to register it, Aftab said.

When Compass contacted officers at the police station, they initially refused to comment, but eventually one admitted that they are under pressure from Muslims leaders and extremists to refrain from filing a First Information Report (FIR) on the alleged crime.

Kidnapped In eastern Punjab Province’s Farooqabad, the Christian father of the allegedly raped 16-year-old girl said he was later kidnapped and tortured. ...

It's probable that a lot of Pakistanis don't hold views anywhere near so extreme. Yet rape against women and girls who are perceived as not upholding Islamic standards does seem to be an accepted part of their culture to a large extent. So what are such people going to think when they land in the West and all around them there are non-believers, behaving in ways and holding attitudes they consider to violate Islam?

Naturally when Pakistanis come to Britain, they are bound to bring their cultural attitudes with them. Why wouldn't they? There is no reason at all why they would somehow abandon them at the border of Pakistan. Of course they're going to bring them here with them. They're going to have the same attitudes when they get here as they did when they left Pakistan. And while it's hoped that being educated in this country will teach them liberal values such as equality for women, some aren't even educated in mainstream British education but are instead educated to a large extent in Islamic schools. They can apparently be taught some pretty extremist things there, even in the UK. See my thread, Forced marriage, violence and extremism

... Welcome to one of Britain's most influential Islamic faith schools, one of at least 2,000 such schools in Britain, some full-time, others part-time. They represent a growing, parallel education system. ...

This school is required by its inspectors to teach tolerance and respect for other faiths. ...

We recorded a number of speakers giving deeply disturbing talks about Jews, Christians and atheists. We found children as young as 11 learning that Hindus have 'no intellect'. We came across pupils being told that the 'disbelievers' are 'the worst creatures' and that Muslims who adopt supposedly non-Muslim ways, such as shaving, dancing, listening to music, and – in the case of women – removing their headscarves, would be tortured with a forked iron rod in the after-life. ...

Having said that it seems Pakistani culture instils some pretty unsavoury attitudes into people, some parts of Pakistan might be more oppressive places to live in than others. Perhaps in parts where people are better educated, there is less cruelty to women.

Meme Virus · Jan 11, 2012

Now I'm going to re-post something else that's in near-oblivion now, thanks to Poseidon's malicious rants, something I put near the end of the last page. It's what Poseidon responded to in the vile manner he has. I find it sickeningly repulsive that I can post distressing articles about suffering and injury, and he responds as if all he's concerned about is the reputations of the men involved, and that what's far more important than the lives of these people going through terrible suffering is my own attitude and whether it's racist. I'm thoroughly disgusted by his attitude. He doesn't even ask questions to determine whether he's right; he just barges straight in with the accusations. I'll quote what he said, and then I'll quote the post it was a response to, so people coming across this in months to come can judge for themselves.

Poseidon had the same sickening attitude when I posted something about rape in South Africa; he said it didn't exist and where it did, it was the fault of women for being abusive to their sons as they were bringing them up. He thinks no blame should be attached to the men at all, apparently, and he seems to have absolutely no concern or human feeling for the women suffering. Not a scrap of concern. I truly do find his attitude sickening and vile. And then he wonders why people aren't being nicer to him and gets all vindictive and mean-spirited!

So here's part of his response to what I posted, and then I'll post what it was a response to, so people can judge for themselves:

PoseidonsNet said: ↑

I would suggest you get out into the real world
instead of trawling the internet for bugbears to squash.

Get real.
That is, deal with real issues in your real life.

Why not start a thread like
'Britain is not white anymore'
wawawawawa

that is your real agenda,
after all,
that is clear

And from the end of the previous page:

That you try to point fingers across the world
to another culture,
rather than look to the legal sodomy / whoring within your own nation

shows you to have
not just a log in your eye
as so much as a rain forest

i find your persistent targeting of ethnicity quite problematic
to the point where i am beginning to think that your quotations
are nothing more than BNP propaganda.

Little girl,
watch your step.

Rather deal with your own people,
it is obvious your intentions are to stir up racial animosity.

You hide your dislike of other races
behind a thinly veiled morality.

Your talk about issues of which you have no direct experience.
And you generally just obfuscate the problems,
as your persona
(a 'meme virus' is defined as a bullshit story)
btw

Now, what that was a response to:

One reason why these girls/women are suffering such injuries as I quoted an article as describing in my last post is probably because they're so young when they're made to marry. It seems common for girls to be made to marry young in Muslim countries, and maybe Hindu ones as well, and in other parts of the developing world. To quote from a report about another Muslim region: Child Brides, Stolen Lives

Unreported World reveals the devastating effects of child marriage and pregnancy in Nigeria, where nearly half of all girls in the country's northern states are married by the age of 15, often to much older men.

Reporter Ramita Navai and director Julie Noon travel to Nigeria to investigate why there has been resistance to outlawing child marriage and what it has meant for thousands of young girls.

Nigeria has one of the highest rates of child marriage and pregnancy in the world and the federal government has tried to ban marriage under the age of 18 by passing the Child Rights Act in 2003. However, five years later, only one northern state has adopted the act and even then replaced the age of 18 with "puberty".

The team's journey begins at a village in Kano State on the wedding day of one young bride. Her friends tells Navai that it's traditional for girls to get married from the age of 12 and start having babies. But her friends reveal the devastating consequences of having babies at such a young age, with mothers whose bodies are physically incapable of going through childbirth suffering horrible injuries and being left physically and emotionally scarred for life. In many cases, their child also dies.

Yet the tradition goes on and on! You'd have thought the elders would realise the cruelty of it and have banned it, but no. Instead:

In some villages visited by the team, half the men have lost young wives and sisters in pregnancy and childbirth. Yet, despite this, there is considerable opposition to implementing the law banning child marriage in northern Nigeria.

In Kaduna state the team speak to one cleric who tells Navai that Northern Nigeria will never accept a law stipulating a minimum age for marriage, as child marriage is permissible in Islam, and that there would be violent uprisings should an attempt be made to enforce it.

You do have to wonder what some people have for brains!

The Islamists are vehemently opposed to the banning of child marriage in other countries as well. Take this article: Yemen's Child Bride Backlash

The sad case of Elham Assi, a 13-year old Yemeni girl who died from internal hemorrhaging after being raped by her 23-year-old husband, has certainly sparked conversation in Yemen over the longstanding practice of child marriage. But the conversations -- taking place everywhere from Sanaa kitchens to the parliament building -- aren't exactly what you'd expect.

Instead of addressing the question of children's rights in a country where a quarter of all girls are married before they're 15 and half before they're 18, some Yemenis are treating Elham Assi's death as a rallying point against the so-called imposition of a Western agenda. Instead of catalyzing protective legislation for children in Yemen, as the tragic 1911 Triangle Factory fire did for industrial laborers in the United States, her death may actually make it more likely that others will share her fate.

In February 2009, parliament approved a bill to raise the marriage age to 18 years old, causing an immediate furor in the Islamist community, which denounced the legislation as un-Islamic. The September 2009 death of a 12-year-old-girl in childbirth once again drove home the importance of this issue. However, the bill has since languished while a parliamentary subcommittee decides whether or not it's in accordance with sharia law. The subcommittee's decision is scheduled for May.

Over the past few months, Sheikh Mohammed Hamzi, an official in the powerful Islamist party, al-Islaah, along with hundreds of other conservative lawmakers and clerics, has issued a clarion call to "true believers" to oppose the law, arguing that it is a first step toward allowing the West to take over Yemeni affairs.

"We will not bend to the demands of Western NGOs. We have our own laws, our own values," said Hamzi, who made headlines again this week when a coalition of Yemeni rights groups announced it would take legal action against the sheikh for maligning activists as infidels and agents of the West during his regular sermons at a Sanaa mosque.

Elham's death sparked reinvigorated calls from local rights activists to pass the bill. In response, Islamist lawmakers, conservative clerics, and members of the ultra-conservative Salafist minority renewed their vehement opposition. On April 22, the infamous henna-bearded Sheikh Adbul-Majid al-Zindani, an influential Yemeni Islamist scholar and reportedly a former spiritual guide for Osama bin Laden, told a crowd at the conservative Iman University that the bill "threatens our culture and society," and he vowed to gather a million signatures opposing the law. His audience cheered in response.

I simply don't understand the mentality of people who have such a lack of concern for the well-being of children and in fact oppose improvements in their welfare.

More insight into what it's like there can be gained from another article. Some years ago, a Yemeni father living in the UK sold his two teenage daughters into marriage to Yemeni boys. They were forced to marry them and live in Yemen.

Sold... to the gentlemen in Yemen. Two underage daughters, £2,600 the pair. What happened to the two English sisters who were sold into marital slavery in Yemen in 1980?

A Jolly holiday in Yemen….

... As children, the sisters were incredibly close. Their father, Muthana, came to Birmingham from Yemen when he was 15, and married their mother, Miriam, a local teenager. A son, Ahmed, and a daughter, Leilah, quickly followed, but Zana and her younger siblings never knew them: two years before Zana was born, Muthana took them back to his parents in Yemen for a 'holiday' and came back without them. He told Miriam they would have a better life in Yemen. She protested bitterly, of course, and wrote to the Foreign Office. But her children were Yemeni citizens, and there was nothing she could do. Soon preoccupied by her growing family – five more children followed – Miriam accepted the situation, and got on with her life. ...

They were raised as a 'typical English family'. They went to a Church of England school and knew little of their father's, a non-practising Muslim, background, though they would see his Arab friends at the family cafe. Zana doesn't recall him being any stricter than her friends' fathers, until they entered their teens at least, though he would claim later he wanted to send them to Yemen as the girls were becoming corrupted by western ways. 'I think he always intended to sell us, from when we were little,' she says, 'just waiting until the opportunity was there. It's evil for a father to even imagine that for his children, but I am sure he did.'

The ordeal began when their father suggested a month's holiday in the Yemen, initially for Nadia only, his oldest friend, Gowad, having volunteered to take her over personally. Though she would travel first, Zana's trip, under the supervision of another Yemeni, Abdul Khada, was arranged later. Their mother did not try to influence them one way or the other. The main purpose of this holiday, the girls understood, would be to visit their long-lost brother and sister. 'Mum was very young at that time,' Zana says, 'and couldn't do anything about it. I think she felt that she and my father had formed a relationship over the years, and he wouldn't do anything like that again. Besides, Ahmed and Leilah were just 2 and 3, we were 14 and 15. She didn't suspect anything. If she had had just an inkling of what was to happen, she would never have let us go.'

... When they reached Abdul Khada's isolated mountain-top village, Zana soon found that living conditions could not be more primitive. Abdul Khada introduced her to his wife Ward and eldest son Mohammed and his wife and children. Zana felt apprehensive but looked forward to the promised visit to Ahmed and Leilah and Nadia's imminent arrival.

Meet your husband (and by the way, he's 13)

On the third day, Abdul Khada introduced Zana to his second son, thirteen year old Abdullah. 'Abdullah,' he said, 'is your husband.' 'At first I thought it was a big joke,' Zana recalls. 'When I realised it wasn't I just went into shock, even now I can feel it.'

Reeling in disbelief, Zana was told her father had arranged the marriage in England and that the same fate awaited Nadia, who was now 'married' to Gowan's son, Mohammed, also thirteen. 'I thought I would wake up the next morning back in England,' Zana says, 'and discover it was all a nightmare. But I didn't. It was reality. Sheer torment for eight years.'

Though Zana managed to smuggle a letter out to her mother, warning her to prevent Nadia leaving, unknown to her, the letter would be intercepted and torn up by her father. The price he had put on hers and Nadia's head, she later discovered, was £1300 each. ...

Under the vindictive supervision of Abdul Khada's wife, Ward, Zana was treated as a virtual slave. And though she resisted as long as she could, she was eventually forced to sleep with her 'husband', 'if I hadn't they would have tied me to the bed.' She remembers her mother-in-law finding blood on the sheets, checking Zana had lost her virginity.

Unable to speak Arabic for the first year or so, she was unable to communicate with other villagers. 'The first few months they beat me everyday because I rebelled against what they did to me. One time they threw paraffin over me after I had been badly cut. It stung like hell but that was their mentality.'

Welcome to the Stone Age

Zana and Nadia struggled to come to terms with a male-dominated culture little changed in hundreds of years. Zana rose at 5.30 to work in the fields before the sun became too hot, made constant trips to the well, bringing back the water in a stone pitcher held on her head, and learnt to cook on a stone fire which constantly burnt her hands. Starved as a punishment for disobedience by her mother-in-law, she killed a snake that had tried to bite her and cooked it. She had malaria three times in six months, cured eventually by a local treatment of camel's urine and milk. ...

In the Pakistani community in the UK, children are being taken out of school in their mid teens and forced to marry. From a BBC article:

'Action needed' on forced marriage says abused teenager

According to new figures seen by Newsbeat, there were 1,735 incidents of potential or actual cases involving British nationals reported to the forced marriage unit (FMU) in 2010.

More than half of the cases dealt with last year by the government's forced marriage unit were related to Pakistan.

Meanwhile, almost a third involved people under the age of 18.

One 15-year-old victim has told Newsbeat that schools and other agencies are not doing enough to help.

The teenager says she was tricked into going to Pakistan by her dad, but she managed to escape days before her wedding to a man twice her age.

Foreign Office minister Jeremy Brown, the minister in joint charge of the UK's forced marriage unit, says he's "sorry" that the victim feels so badly let down.

But he also defended the actions of the British government.

"We try to do what we can," he said. "I am not aware of any other country in the world that does more than Britain in terms of forced marriage."

Beaten and cut

The 15-year-old victim has been talking about how she risked her life to escape a forced marriage in Pakistan.

She says her father wanted to marry her off to a man 16 years older than her so he could come to live in the UK.

Cows in village of Bain Sharif Last year the FMU rescued seven people each month from rural areas

"It was just about the money," she admitted.

"He was literally selling me and he was selling my nationality so I could bring the person back.

"I think it would have been £10,000."

When she refused to marry the man, her father started to beat her.

"He whacked me across the face," she admitted. "Then I started rebelling more, saying, 'No'.

"Then he actually got a glass and scarred my arms.

"He had somebody holding me from behind, one of his servants, and he got a glass and was actually cutting very deep cuts."

Her father then began locking her in her room without food or water for hours on end.

She says she "didn't see any ray of light or hope".

"I thought he might kill me. I just thought I was going to die there in that room." ...

Apparently it's quite common for men from those regions to think they're entitled to do such things to their daughters if they disobey their orders or do things that violate their cultural traditions like getting their own boyfriends.

So with an attitude to women and girls that's so repressive, perhaps it's no wonder we have so many Pakistani men living in this country who think it's perfectly acceptable to rape our teenagers. From another BBC article: Victim groomed by 'evil' Derby sex gang

Sexual predators Mohammed Liaqat and Abid Saddique were caught on CCTV as they drove around Derby stopping girls on the street.

Some teenagers did not take the bait but others swapped mobile phone numbers and were then bombarded with texts.

"They'd take you out, buy you ice creams, take you out for a lovely meal," according to one victim, who was enticed to meet up and then raped.

She said she was targeted because she told them she came from a broken home.

"They ask you certain questions like 'who do you live with?' and they're getting to know what kind of protection you've got, what kind of safety you've got, who's going to stick up for you if they do anything.

"They actually take advantage of the fact that no-one does care about you really.

"They make you feel as if they're on your side and that you are in a real relationship and they just abuse any feelings of love and caring about people." ...

At one Derby address, several victims were invited to parties and then pressured into sex, sometimes with several partners.

One teenager described a sexual assault which involved at least eight men.

If the teenagers refused the men's advances, they were threatened. Two were threatened with hammers and another was locked up, held prisoner and then raped.

Detectives collected numerous DNA samples from several crime scenes. Twenty seven girls eventually came forward to say they had been victims.

Many of them had had previous contact with Derby City's social services, and two were still in care at the time of the offences. Det Supt Debbie Platt, who led the investigation, said: "The offenders have followed girls wearing school uniforms on the streets.

"They've driven into school car parks. We were incredibly shocked because we hadn't anticipated the level of offending that was going on.

"It's very difficult to understand their motivation but it's that classic grooming scenario where the adult has control over the child." ...

Meme Virus · Jan 20, 2012

This thread's linked to on Google's first page for the search terms pakistani rape gangs. Unfortunately, the snippet of text it quotes from the thread is the one where PoseidonsNet, in his crass, vile and repulsive assessment of the importance of the issues being discussed here, says, among other things:

"... I would suggest you get out into the real world instead of trawling the internet for bugbears to squash. Get real. That is, deal with real ..." "issues", presumably.

Well frankly, if he thinks the exploitation, traumatising and abuse of thousands of girls isn't a real issue, he's probably one of those people who makes the world a better place simply by departing from it! The kind of person whose absence rids the world of someone it's definitely better off without. Perhaps if someone smashed his head to smitherines, he would equally brush it off as just not a real issue as he departed. Or perhaps if one of those gays he hates so much were to rape him, he'd come out of it merry as a songbird and say to people, "Don't make an issue out of this; it's not important. Making a big deal of it would just be spreading anti-gay propaganda, and that wouldn't be nice at all! If you ever read about this online, just forget it and get out into the real world so you can think about Real issues!"

Now we hear that one of these sexual predators recently murdered one of these girls, with another sexual predator aiding and abetting him in every possible way except sticking the knife in. And it seems the one who aided and abetted the murderer walked free from court! Why, I don't know!

This is how much danger one of these girls puts herself in if she tells the families of these men what's been going on:

Groomed for Sex Then Thrown into a Canal and Killed: Life for Man Who Murdered White Girl for ‘Shaming’ Asian Family

A vulnerable teenager was stabbed and thrown into a canal to die after she brought ‘shame’ on an Asian family, a court heard.

Laura Wilson, 17, who was groomed for sex by a string of British Pakistani men, was repeatedly knifed by 18-year-old Ashtiaq Asghar.

He then pushed her into the water, using the point of the knife to force her head below the surface as she fought to stay alive.

Asghar was furious after the young mother revealed details of their sexual relationship to his Muslim family and was on ‘a mission to kill’, the court was told.

He exchanged a series of texts with married friend and mentor Ishaq Hussain, 22, who had also had an affair with Laura, and who the judge described as a man who regarded white girls as ‘sexual targets, not human beings’.

In one message, sent a day before he killed Miss Wilson, Asghar wrote: ‘I’m gonna send that kuffar (non-Muslim) bitch straight to Hell.’

In another he wrote: ‘I need to do a mission.’ He talked of buying a pistol and ‘making some beans on toast’, a reference to spilling blood used in Four Lions, a satirical film about suicide bombers.

Last night, Asghar was told he must serve a minimum of 17-and-a-half years after he pleaded guilty to murder and was jailed for life. Mr Hussain was acquitted of murder by joint enterprise after a retrial.

Sentencing Asghar, Lord Justice Davis told him: ‘I take the view you came under the influence of Mr Hussain who is something of a mentor to you.

‘He seems to have regarded girls, white girls, simply as sexual targets. He does not treat them as human beings at all. You got into that mindset yourself.

‘You no doubt once had feelings for Laura but treated her with contempt in the latter stages.’...

Miss Wilson was a troubled teenager who was first identified as being at risk of sexual exploitation by British Pakistani men when she was 12.

She had developed several links with Asian men in her home town of Rotherham, South Yorkshire.

In 2007, when she was 13, she and her family appeared on The Jeremy Kyle Show. During the programme—about out-of-control children—her sister warned her that ‘your attitude is going to get you in big danger’.

Workers at a child sexual exploitation project later sent a report to social services, but no action was taken to remove her from what became a continuing spiral of sexual abuse.

By the time she was 16, she had embarked on an affair with Mr Hussain, who was then 20 and already married.

She gave birth to a daughter in June last year, but Mr Hussain refused to accept that the child was his.

Four months later, and just days before she was murdered on October 12, she ‘shamed’ Asghar and Mr Hussain by informing their families of her relationship with both men.

She told Asghar’s mother she loved her son and ‘wanted to have babies’ by him. But Mrs Asghar was furious and attempted to hit Miss Wilson with a shoe, branding her ‘a dirty white bitch’ who should ‘keep your legs closed’, the trial was told.

Nicholas Campbell QC, prosecuting, said that in subsequent text messages Asghar mounted ‘a mission to kill Laura Wilson’.

Asghar and Mr Hussain had decided that Miss Wilson was ‘a loose cannon and they had to get rid of her’, Sheffield Crown Court was told. ...

These reports just get more and more nightmarish! Here's something even worse. This is pretty sickening:

Police 'hid' abuse of 60 girls by Asian takeaway workers linked to murder of 14-year-old

At least 60 schoolgirls were groomed for sex by workers at seedy takeaways linked to the murder of a 14-year-old girl.

Children as young as 11 were targeted by mainly Asian staff at fast food outlets in Blackpool. They were offered food, alcohol and cigarettes in return for sexual favours.

An unpublicised police report produced after 14-year-old Charlene Downes vanished in 2003 found the girls, most if not all white, had been victims of the ‘honey pot’ premises. There were claims last night that the report was suppressed for reasons of political correctness.

Four years later another girl, 15-year-old Paige Chivers, also went missing. Detectives believe she was killed like Charlene, whose body has never been found.

Two Middle Eastern restaurant owners were acquitted over Charlene’s murder in 2007 and the crime remains unsolved.

The pair still run a kebab shop in Blackpool which was also linked to Paige, and she too was identified as a victim of sexual exploitation. Last year police reported that the takeaway was attracting young girls who were being supplied with alcohol and cocaine.

The revelations about the scale of grooming centred around the downmarket cafes comes amid growing concern at disturbing cases involving mainly Asian gangs exploiting young white girls for sex in the Midlands and North of England.

The girls, often from vulnerable homes or in the care system, were befriended by men who showered them with gifts and affection before using them for sex.

Former Home Secretary Jack Straw has said the girls were seen as ‘easy meat’, while David Cameron called on police to follow criminal acts ‘without fear or favour’ wherever the evidence leads.

The Home Office commissioned a nationwide investigation into the problem, which has long been considered taboo by police officers fearful of being branded racist.

Indeed, a former senior detective at Lancashire Police yesterday blamed political correctness for its failure to highlight its 2003 findings in Blackpool.

But the force denied this, saying the report had been available online since 2007 but had never been intended for publication.

Shocking claims made in court over Charlene’s murder revealed fears that her body had been put through a mincing machine, with takeaway staff said to have joked that her remains had ‘gone into the kebabs’.

A jury failed to reach a verdict on charges that Jordanian immigrant Iyad Albattikhi had murdered her while his Iranian landlord Mohammed Reveshi had disposed of her body.

A retrial collapsed in 2008 amid failings in the police investigation and the men were paid almost £250,000 each in compensation. ...

Following Charlene’s disappearance in 2003, police found more than 60 girls were being groomed for sex by non-white men centred around 11 Blackpool takeaways.

They were mainly aged between 13 and 15, but some were as young as 11. Yesterday former Detective Superintendent Mick Gradwell warned that research into the problem was being hampered by ‘political correctness and concerns about upsetting community cohesion’.

But Lancashire police denied a cover-up. Assistant Chief Constable Andy Rhodes said his officers were making significant progress in tackling child sex exploitation across Lancashire, regardless of the background of the culprits.

He added: ‘We recognise that in some areas the number of Asian offenders is disproportionate to the population and far from ignoring this, have been tackling the issue head on by working with the local communities, giving presentations to community forums and visiting mosques to raise awareness.’...

And there's this:

'I Was GANG RAPED BY 5 ASIANS AT THE AGE OF 12'

BRITAIN’S youngest mum fell pregnant at 12 after being passed around an Asian sex gang.

The five-strong mob, made up largely of Pakistani taxi drivers, blitzed the schoolgirl with gifts including phones and sweets.

And after plying her with booze they took it in turns to have sex with her in a car park on “numerous occasions”.

The nation was stunned when the girl fell pregnant and became Britain’s youngest mum in 2002.

Police vowed to hunt the dad and prosecute him for statutory rape. But they were stunned when the girl revealed she had been having sex with five men and did not know who was the father.

Officers soon uncovered she had been lured into underage sex by the mob, but rather than highlight the problem the authorities decided to “brush it under the carpet”, a whistleblower said.

None of the gang was prosecuted and the girl was taken into care. She was Britain’s youngest mum at the time but that record has since been broken.

An injunction bans identifying anyone involved to protect the girl’s identity. The girl, from South Yorkshire, moved away and brought up her daughter with the help of her mum.

The case supports ex-Home Secretary Jack Straw’s claim that Pakistani sex gangs have been preying on white girls for years.

An official involved in the case contacted the Daily Star after reading our exposés of Asian sex gangs.

They said: “It was one of the most horrifying examples of the way these gangs operate. The tragedy was she didn’t even know she had been effectively raped by these men time and again.

“She said they were all her boyfriends and had given her mobile phones, sweets, and drinks.

“She was ever such a sweet girl really and very, very pretty. But starved of affection in her own home she looked to these men for comfort.

“They knew that if they befriended her and were nice to her she would respond.

“Afterwards she was moved away to bring up the youngster and the men involved all just seemed to vanish.

“Political correctness dictated issues like this just could not be discussed. It was brushed under the carpet.” ...

PoseidonsNet · Jan 21, 2012

I think the majority of your meme's are constructed on story's which
in no way can be verified. You never talk of YOUR experience's
but live vicariously off the (alleged) trauma of others.

You consider that sodomite rape in your prison cells because kids use
non-european substances is totally justified.

You consider the pillaging, privateering and rape of South America justified
because they produce cocaine, (which i have never even seen) but which
i know to be the equivalent of 'legit' substances sold by your 'drug stores'.

I have lived in an Islamic community, and found zero evidence
for any of the type of people your COPY-PASTE stories suggest.

I have an Islamic neighbour at present, and his family are just as sweet
as my neighbors when I lived in the Islamic community in Cape Town called the bo-kaap.

I have no reason to believe any of your stories are any more than pro-gay
propaganda, which has ONLY become an issue since Bill Clinton (the pervert)
ruined the reputation of the west with his PROVEN lies and infidelity.

The west has been intent on demonising marijuana, the only drug which
can effectively treat a host of illnesses, a list so long its hardly worth mentioning.

All the superstitious pseudo-scientific problems seem to not effect the dutch,
and many many other people.

once more

TAKE THE RAIN FOREST OUT OF YOUR OWN EYE

its astonishing that at no point you ever talk about REAL events in YOUR life.

copy-pasting is nothing more than GOSSIP
you are just trying to justify your own prejudices.

Your society promotes queerness which ironically was the underlying psychosis
of the nazis that your and my grandparents defeated in a horrible war
not that long ago.

The entire nazi SS was queer.
Did you know that? Probably, but then you support the nazis so long
as they pillage and rape denmark

not so?

Meme Virus · Jan 21, 2012

Wow, this is just stark-raving insane. I'm coming to the realisation that saying angry words to Poseidon or making fun of him is unfair and the wrong thing to do; he's probably certifiably insane rather than malicious. Fancy taking the opportunity of this thread to rant against those who disapprove of drugs and turn it into an anti-gay diatribe, as he does with most other threads! Fancy him thinking this is what it's really about! Talk about obsessive and wrong-headed!

------------

Earlier in this thread I linked to my thread Forced marriage, violence and extremism which is about what goes on in some Asian communities in the UK, especially Muslim ones. I've linked to it again, because with the upgrade to the new board, the link broke, so this is one that works. I'll quote some stuff from it again. It seems that a lot of these men who are growing up thinking rape and sexual exploitation of underage girls is perfectly acceptable may be learning hate from the places they're educated in. Could there be a connection between the hatred of non-Muslims some of them are indoctrinated with and their contempt for the young girls they feel free to use and discard - could one lead to the other? It's impossible to say without further looking into it; but while the spirit of religion is often thought to be one that teaches compassion and caring, a religious education could be teaching these men the complete opposite.

Here's the kind of thing I mean. From the other thread, a quotation from a feature that went with a television programme on the subject:

It is an assembly hall of the sort found in any ordinary school. Boys aged 11 and upwards sit cross-legged on the floor in straight rows. They face the front of the room and listen carefully. But this is no ordinary assembly. Holding the children's attention is a man in Islamic dress wearing a skullcap and stroking his long dark beard as he talks.

'You're not like the non-Muslims out there,' the teacher says, gesturing towards the window. 'All that evil you see in the streets, people not wearing the hijab properly, people smoking... you should hate it, you should hate walking down that street.'

He refers to the 'non-Muslims' as the 'Kafir', an often derogatory term that means disbeliever or infidel.

Darul Uloom Islamic High School in Birmingham

Welcome to one of Britain's most influential Islamic faith schools, one of at least 2,000 such schools in Britain, some full-time, others part-time. They represent a growing, parallel education system. ...

This school is required by its inspectors to teach tolerance and respect for other faiths. But Dispatches' Lessons in Hate and Violence filmed secretly inside it – and instead discovered that Muslim children are being taught religious apartheid and social segregation.

'...tortured with a forked iron rod'

We recorded a number of speakers giving deeply disturbing talks about Jews, Christians and atheists. We found children as young as 11 learning that Hindus have 'no intellect'. We came across pupils being told that the 'disbelievers' are 'the worst creatures' and that Muslims who adopt supposedly non-Muslim ways, such as shaving, dancing, listening to music, and – in the case of women – removing their headscarves, would be tortured with a forked iron rod in the after-life. ...

Of course this country's heading for more trouble. In fact, it's here already. In another post in that thread, I quote from an article about a meeting in London that had to be cancelled because Muslim extremists intruded and threatened to kill anyone there who said a word against Mohammed.

There's a man who comes from Pakistan or thereabouts who goes under the name Ibn Warraq. It's not his real name; according to Wikipedia, he's been in fear for his safety for a long long time from Islamic extremists so he writes under a pseudonym. He comes from a Muslim background but got a Western education and is now a vociferous critic of Islam. He's written a book called Why The West Is Best. He expresses his views in this article:

Last October, I participated in a debate in London, hosted by Intelligence Squared, to consider the motion, “We should not be reluctant to assert the superiority of Western values.” Muslim intellectual Tariq Ramadan, among others, spoke against the motion; I spoke in favor, focusing on the vast disparities in freedom, human rights, and tolerance between Western and Islamic societies. Here, condensed somewhat, is the case that I made.

The great ideas of the West—rationalism, self-criticism, the disinterested search for truth, the separation of church and state, the rule of law and equality under the law, freedom of thought and expression, human rights, and liberal democracy—are superior to any others devised by humankind. It was the West that took steps to abolish slavery; the calls for abolition did not resonate even in Africa, where rival tribes sold black prisoners into slavery. The West has secured freedoms for women and racial and other minorities to an extent unimaginable 60 years ago. The West recognizes and defends the rights of the individual: we are free to think what we want, to read what we want, to practice our religion, to live lives of our choosing.

In short, the glory of the West, as philosopher Roger Scruton puts it, is that life here is an open book. Under Islam, the book is closed. In many non-Western countries, especially Islamic ones, citizens are not free to read what they wish. In Saudi Arabia, Muslims are not free to convert to Christianity, and Christians are not free to practice their faith—clear violations of Article 18 of the United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In contrast with the mind-numbing enforced certainties and rules of Islam, Western civilization offers what Bertrand Russell once called “liberating doubt,” which encourages the methodological principle of scientific skepticism. Western politics, like science, proceeds through tentative steps of trial and error, open discussion, criticism, and self-correction.

One could characterize the difference between the West and the Rest as a difference in epistemological principles. The desire for knowledge, no matter where it leads, inherited from the Greeks, has led to an institution unequaled—or very rarely equaled—outside the West: the university. ...

The edifice of modern science and scientific method is one of Western man’s greatest gifts to the world. The West has given us not only nearly every scientific discovery of the last 500 years—from electricity to computers—but also, thanks to its humanitarian impulses, the Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International. The West provides the bulk of aid to beleaguered Darfur; Islamic countries are conspicuous by their lack of assistance.

Moreover, other parts of the world recognize Western superiority. When other societies such as South Korea and Japan have adopted Western political principles, their citizens have flourished. It is to the West, not to Saudi Arabia or Iran, that millions of refugees from theocratic or other totalitarian regimes flee, seeking tolerance and political freedom. ...

A culture that gave the world the novel; the music of Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert; and the paintings of Michelangelo, da Vinci, and Rembrandt does not need lessons from societies whose idea of heaven, peopled with female virgins, resembles a cosmic brothel. Nor does the West need lectures on the superior virtue of societies in which women are kept in subjection under sharia, endure genital mutilation, are stoned to death for alleged adultery, and are married off against their will at the age of nine; societies that deny the rights of supposedly lower castes; societies that execute homosexuals and apostates. The West has no use for sanctimonious homilies from societies that cannot provide clean drinking water or sewage systems, that make no provisions for the handicapped, and that leave 40 to 50 percent of their citizens illiterate. ...

Here's his book on Amazon. It's quite surprising how strongly the book description speaks out against Islamic cultures, given he comes from one of them.

He's obviously well-educated. Perhaps if all Pakistanis were educated as well as him, ... well, for one thing, maybe they'd seek to debate the things he says that they don't like instead of longing to kill him!

Perhaps PoseidonsNet will put something here in response to this that illustrates the massive contrast between the educated style and clarity of thought of this man and his own bigoted thoughtless semi-coherent abuse.

PoseidonsNet · Jan 23, 2012

Once more :

Prostitution is rampant throughout the west.
Why does this not bother you?

Is it ok to withhold livlihood in exchange for sex?
Did you not realise that child trafficking and prostitution go hand in hand?

Are you Dwhorekins' personal slave?

Meme Virus · Jan 23, 2012

PN, I will no longer respond to you in this thread. Conversing with you just fouls it up and sends it off-topic. Since you will insist on plastering it with rabid raving rubbish, ascribing views to me that you have absolutely no evidence I hold, showing absolutely no concern for these victims of terrible crimes, and simply turning the thing into a mess, I will from now on respond to you in the thread I started when you went on a mission of fouling up the threads I was posting in before, the A poem: You thread. Respond to me there. I'll respond to your latest post there.

For anyone who's been thinking PoseidonsNet might actually have a point, you'll see the Real reason I started this thread if you read through the first post in it, properly. That's page 1, by the way, if anyone's confused. It talks about how the government needs to do something about the problem, since thousands upon thousands of girls are believed to be affected by this abuse; and I've put a list there of things I think needs to happen to stop this happening, including the police being more zealous about prosecuting the crime, and schools making efforts to teach pupils to respect and be caring towards others.

PoseidonsNet · Jan 26, 2012

aaah.
The ignorant is ignoring. No surprise. Please observe how the ignorant avoids the issue as she has lost the argument.
If she was really concerned about pedophilia she would be analysing it in strictly psychological terms, which would avoid ANY connotations to ethnicity.

I humbly apologize to any Pakistani readers on behalf of my fellow white-person-of-British-extract's racist argument.
She even thinks i am of 'mixed race' despite my blonde hair and blue eyes!

There are no mixed races, as this would imply 'pure' races, which is just racism.
We are warned that 'a little learning is a dangerous thing'. Luckily for her I am here to (hopefully) restore some faith in white people to the Pakistani readers.

btw
You guys wallopped the poms in the cricket the other day!
Perhaps thats what has her all narked!
Please send more Pakistani's to colonize England, if only to teach them what cricket is all about!

Allah Akbar

Meme Virus · Jan 26, 2012

Ah, the bliss of having Poseidon on ignore so I won't be irritated by what he said! Very nice!

And this is interesting: Now the board isn't even giving me his name on the home page; there's just no name when he's the one who posted last in a thread, presumably so if someone can't even bear to read the name of an opponent, they don't have to.

I started a thread about what I've been talking about in this thread and other things to do with certain issues being taboo because of political correctness on the JREF forum, where I linked to this thread and quoted from some of the articles quoted in it.

After my first post, someone asked if there really was an issue with Pakistani rapists or whether it was just that when they targeted white girls, people cared about it more. Here's how I responded:

It's apparently a fact that a vastly disproportionate number of gang rapists in the UK are of Pakistani descent; and discussion of that needs to happen so the causes can be explored so more adequate solutions can be found. Certainly when sex offenders are taken as a whole, most in the UK are white, as one might expect, and it would indeed be an outrage if a lot of publicity was given to terrible problems such as human trafficking of people of other ethnicities into the UK for prostitution and no one cared. But though there may be lots of individual men who frequent brothels fully suspecting some women and girls there might have been pushed into prostitution against their will, and that's sickening and disgusting, I'm not aware that there's widespread public insensitivity to that kind of thing.

But the vast majority of offenders who groom and gang rape girls in the UK are apparently of Pakistani descent.

There are some in the Pakistani community who are concerned about this problem, ready and willing to admit that the vast majority of offenders are from the Pakistani community, and trying to do something about it. I can give a few examples that were posted in the Pakistani child rape gangs in the UK thread on the other board, of people from the Pakistani community who don't want political correctness or any other concerns to stifle discussion of this, but who actively want something done about it.

Firstly, a female journalist of Asian descent wrote a very strongly-worded article condemning the crime:

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Asian men, white women and a taboo that must be broken

... Horrific sexual crimes against young girls were committed by a paedophile gang in Derby, a place I hardly know. Several gang members were convicted and sent down. These urban predators stalked and "chose" their victims, took them for ice creams and nice meals (treats some of the lasses had never had), drove them around in flash cars, handed out drink and cigarettes, drugged their trusting prey, then raped them over and over again, threatening them with hammers, and worse, if they told.

Such rings have been exposed before, and many others carry on without detection. It is the nightmare of every parent, and for the children who are brutalised it is the end of their innocence and a total desecration of their human rights. Men who destroy children for their own gratification roam streets in every land.

The Derby gang was all Asian except for one seasoned white abuser. Most of the Asians were Muslim Pakistanis and – apart from a few Asian and mixed-race girls who fell into their nets – their victims were almost all white. Because I am Asian ... and the rapists were my people committing a "Paki" crime against white females, I am guilty too, apparently, part of the evil posse. ...

But in the case of the Asian men, disgusting cultural beliefs further validate their acts and their uncontrollable lechery is, in part, a symptom of repressed sexuality and sick attitudes.

Most Asian men do not go around raping young white girls and women; many have happy and equal relationships with white partners. However, an alarming number of Asian individuals, families and communities do believe that white females have no morals, are free and available, deserving of no respect or protection. ...

On Channel 4 (UK) there was a documentary about the matter, and the reporter was of Pakistani descent. She wrote a feature about it, Britain's Sex Gangs. She interviewed a Muslim who's trying to stop this:

Alyas Kamani is a forward thinking Imam, the director of STREET (Strategy to Reach Educate and Empower Teenagers) UK Ltd, and a counsellor. He wrote a commentary about the issues raised in the film:

Like the vast majority of people of Pakistani Muslim background, I was deeply outraged and appalled by the high profile stories about child sexual exploitation and sexual violence that have been perpetrated by men of Pakistani origin.

This prompted me to develop and deliver our ground breaking workshop programme with young people at risk of sexual violence in London and West Yorkshire, as well as send out a strong and clear message that sexual violence in all its forms is unacceptable and needs to be vigorously challenged by the community.

Regrettably, there have been cases of sexual violence in the Pakistani Muslim community and my view is that one case of rape and sexual abuse would be too many. However, there is a worrying pattern of increased numbers of cases across the UK in localities which have a high percentage Pakistani population. ...

Our workshop on sexual violence and street grooming addresses the following:

• To establish a clear and strong message of the unacceptability of sexual violence and how to be resilient to it and how to challenge it in society.

• How to develop positive, caring, emotionally supportive and protective relationships with women.

• Developing self esteem to challenge peer pressure and negative social influences.

• To explain what is sexual violence and what the moral, legal and social implications of it are.

• The reasons why sexual violence occurs.

• The forms of sexual violence.

• Focussing on rape and the forms rape takes such as date rape, statutory rape and gang rape.

• The impact of sexual violence on victims.

• To explore the risk factors associated to sexual violence and who is 'at risk' of perpetrating sexual violence and sex offending.

• Understanding what is 'street grooming' and the forms it takes.

• The sexual grooming process and the victims of grooming.

• How to prevent sexual violence and 'street grooming'.

• Exploring 'pimping' and prostitution.

• Exploring men's view of women and the impact of over-sexualised society.

• Clarification of moral, legal and social boundaries.

• Exploring issues from a cultural and Islamic faith perspective.

Sounds good. There probably ought to be more workshops like that.

Another article related to the programme was written by a youth worker with Asian young men, who talks about his experiences and views on the causes of the problem: Britain's Sex Gangs: Shakeel Aziz Feature

... One of the contributing factors is cultural confusion amongst young Asian men. There is a strong influence of South East Asian culture, namely family honor stemming from marrying within the family or tribe and near-isolation from society.

Then there's the other extreme of an over-sexualized, material and lust-driven lifestyle being presented through hardcore gangsta music and movies, which degrades a man to pimp and a woman to bitch'. ...

Some elements of the Asian culture which I have experienced as well - are very problematic, for example; young Asian men and women find it very difficult to marry a potential marriage partner who they like because the culture won't allow them to marry someone from another caste, or another tribe, or someone who is from outside the family network. ...

On a local level we, the Asian community, must deal with this issue and not become over sensitive when these types of crimes are exposed. If these crimes did not exist in our communities then there would be nothing to expose. For second and third generation Asian people, Britain is our home, we are born here and we are British.

I am proud to say that I am British, am aware and proud of my Pakistani roots and am a follower of the religion of Islam. So, if there is anything in my community which is wrong then I and all other proud Muslim Pakistanis must stand up and tackle these wrongs, not sit around and complain when the extreme right wing racist groups pick up on these issues and use them against us.

For all those who become sensitive and defensive, I say to them that Islam teaches us to stand up firmly for justice, even if that means admitting a fracture in our community, because denying that a problem exists will only make that problem grow, eventually causing irreparable damage. ...

Meme Virus · Jan 31, 2012

Gang rapes in London seem to be mainly committed by black men. Here's another post I put on the JREF forum in that thread about how political correctness and so on was possibly stifling important conversation and other things. Someone posted crime statistics about how young men from the black community seem to be responsible for a disproportionately high number of crimes of various kinds. He said it was important to investigate the reasons. I said:

I agree. I recently heard those crime statistics.

There's an article in the Telegraph, a broadsheet newspaper, about the issue:

Police statistics shed fresh light on link between crime and race

Nine out of 10 street crimes, knife crimes and gun crimes are committed by men rather than women.

Twelve per cent of London’s men are black. But 54 per cent of the street crimes committed by men in London, along with 46 per cent of the knife crimes and more than half of the gun crimes, are thought by the Metropolitan Police to have been committed by black men.

Or at least, the police “proceed against” black men in those proportions for each of those crimes.

Crime statistics have to be approached with extreme caution, because it is very easy to leap to conclusions which are not justified by the figures. ...

Some will say that this merely shows the prevalence of racism within the Met. But officers are required to provide evidence before they charge anyone with a crime.

Street crimes and crimes of violence are “contact crimes”: the victims usually get to look at the person attacking them, and so are able to point out some distinguishing features of the assailant -- such as gender, size, and skin colour. ...

Many of the victims of street crime are black: twice as high a proportion of the total victims, according to the Met’s figures, as you would expect from the proportion of black people in London’s population as a whole.

It is not remotely likely that their racism leads these black victims to mis-identify the people who attack them as black when they are in fact white – and it is scarcely more plausible to maintain that white victims routinely mis-identify their attackers as black when they are white. ...

In the 21st century, the principal grounds on which the Met is accused of racism is that black men make up a much higher proportion of the people stopped and searched by police officers than any other ethnic group.

The Equality Commission assumes that such a practice shows that officers must be covertly racist.

But the disproportionate number of black men identified by victims as perpetrators demonstrates that racism need not have anything to do with it: when the victim identifies the assailant as a black male, it is logical, indeed necessary, for officers to start investigating black suspects.

That may lead them to stop and search black males who are in the vicinity and who have other characteristics identified by the victim.

Officers from the Met could, of course, stop and search old white women or middle-aged Asian mothers instead.

That might end the “disproportionality”. It would also be totally useless as a way of identifying and catching the people responsible for street crime. ...

There's a Wikipedia article about the crime statistics. It says factors other than ethnicity are thought to be responsible for more crime being committed by black men, but doesn't seem to elaborate much on some of them, which is a pity. It says:

Race and crime in the United Kingdom

These statistics have highlighted differences in rates of crime between racial groups, and some commentators have suggested cultural explanations for these differences. However, research on young people published by the Home Office suggests that, once other factors have been controlled for, such as weak school discipline, liberal parenting, strong parental guidance, socioeconomic class, local drug problems, weak local control, siblings in trouble with the police, household size, gender, and family type, then ethnicity is not a reliable predictor of the propensity to commit crime. ...

Some commentators have argued that the issue of black people and crime is hidden away or downplayed, and that the fear of accusations of racism may have contributed to this. ...

Figures from the Office for National Statistics showed that in 2007 an estimated 10.6 percent of London 's population of 7,556,900 were black. Evidence shows that the black population in London boroughs increases with the level of deprivation, and that the level of crime also increases with deprivation, such that "It is clear that ethnicity, deprivation, victimisation and offending are closely and intricately inter-related". ...

Various explanations have been given for the disproportionate representation rates of arrest and imprisonment in the black community. These have included the underachievement of black children at schools, the lack of male black role models, and aspects of black culture often thought of as encouraging criminal behaviour. An important factor is that young people of all groups are more likely to commit crime, and the black population is significantly younger than the general population. ...

People simply have to be able to discuss these things wherever the evidence leads, without people who are overly-worried about cultural sensitivities or defensive about their ethnic group immediately crying "Racism". If people are too scared to even bring the subject up for fear of being branded racist, the real factors that cause crime and so on may be less likely to be unearthed and discussed, and that will end up hurting the communities some of the defensive people come from, because with less discussion of the problems there's less likely to be discussion of possible solutions, so the most effective solutions may be less likely to be implemented.

It isn't just white people who get accused. Even black people who want the issues brought out into the open and discussed so solutions can be more readily found can get heavily criticised. In an old article by one such person called The issue of gang rape has returned to haunt us a black man, Darcus Howe, wrote about how gang rapes have been found to be disproportionately committed by black men in London, and the anger and even threats he faced when he highlighted the issue:

... Just before Christmas last year, Channel 4 broadcast a report outlining cases of gang rape involving young black men and young black women. (In one incident, a gang of 23 bruised and battered a 14-year-old in one session.) Such was the furore that I was invited to chair a studio discussion and I defended the channel's right to broadcast. The anti-racists went berserk. The 1990 Trust and a black feminist group called a demonstration outside the Channel 4 studios to protest against what they described as the channel's racism. Their friends, in one of the broadsheets, predicted a mass mobilisation. Eventually 15 parrots with sticks turned up, but not a single parent of the rapists or the rapists themselves.

A reporter on the Nation, a black community tabloid, could not resist the bait. A white boy reporter (it's my description for one who is more militant on black issues than blacks themselves) kept screaming at me down the phone, accusing me of being pro-police, anti-black, living in Paul Condon's pockets. I dug deep into my bag of expletives and spat them all over him. Anonymous threats came thick and fast. I would be shot, my daughter gang-raped and more, much more. The white boy taped my expletives and reproduced them on his front page. I was livid - he had edited out the juicy bits, you see.

Now the issue has returned to haunt those who babbled "racism" upon the identification of a dangerous phenomenon in the black community. Had they spent their energies then in support of Channel 4 and used their resources to plaster south London with posters decrying gang rape, then perhaps the frequency of this heinous crime would have been greatly reduced. I sat my daughter down and told her that it would be reasonable to carry an ice pick in her backpack and, should she be attacked, to close her eyes and sink it deeply in the assailant's head.

I am not afraid to say that this virus that expresses itself in gang rape has its origins in the Caribbean plantation. I grew up in and around the capital city of Trinidad and Tobago. Port of Spain, to be exact. It was littered with youth gangs of the third and fourth generation. I was a member of Style Crampers. There were others - Fallen Angels, Spike Jones, City Kids, Navarone and more. And a feature of gang life was gang rape. ...

Periphery · Feb 17, 2012 at 3:57 PM

There are some very real issues within UK society around the sexual exploitation of white girls by young Asian males, and these are indeed attributed to the practice of arranged marriages and very insular communities.

I believe this issue came to light when a group of Asian males were arrested targeting girls within the care system. And yes many Asian men have gone on record and stated that they would target white girls for casual sexual relationships as there would be no expectations of marriage etc as they are generally outside of their community circles.

I think it is unfair of the OP to target Pakistani people in this area, and certainly gang rape is not exclusive to Pakistani people. Moreover it is wrong to attribute the practice of gang rape to the issue of relationships etc.

Gang rape, and rape is invariably a power play, used to establish shame and dominance over someone, it is highly unlikely that a group of horny asian teens get together and vent their sexual frustrations on the same victim.

This is why it is gangs that generally use this abhorrent practice, and more publicised, Military and Rebel forces in certain third world countries. the former used as a form of initiation, the latter used as a tool of terror and war.

Meme Virus · Feb 17, 2012 at 6:10 PM

"The OP" doesn't say gang rape is just a Pakistani thing. Nor is gang rape being blamed on cultural issues; the OP quotes an article where a Pakistani youth worker says he thinks the reasons some Pakistani men in Britain are grooming girls for sex and gang raping them is partly because of cultural issues. That's just his opinion. The OP quotes a number of other things. The reason it focuses on the gang rapes committed by Pakistani men is that for some reason, whatever that may be, most of the men committing these crimes in Britain apparently are Pakistani.

Certainly gang rape can't just be blamed on culture, as if it's an excuse; it's a despicable crime, often having a lot to do with the wish to feel powerful, a total lack of compassion for the feelings of victims, and other such things. What's under discussion is why it seems it's culturally more acceptable in at least some sectors of the Pakistani community to commit these crimes than it is in other communities. On page 2 there are posts quoting articles about how in areas of Pakistan, rape is seen as culturally acceptable - in fact, gang rape is even a legal sentence in tribal areas; the tribesmen who lay down the law mete it out for things as trivial as women wearing make-up or sitting next to a man of a tribe thought to be a lower one, and though families where a woman or girl is the victim of such a legal sentence can obviously be very upset, there doesn't seem to be widespread opposition to the practice. Also some families apparently justify rape on religious grounds, indoctrinating young wives that they have to have sex with their husbands or the angels will be angry, and that kind of thing. These things come from reports by Pakistanis themselves.

The thing is that when we have people from areas like that emigrating to Britain, they're just bound to bring their cultural attitudes with them, and then they'll likely pass them to their descendants. So cultural attitudes where violence against women is acceptable will clearly be brought with anyone who's been raised in those parts of Pakistan where it's acceptable, unless they disapprove of cultural standards there.

Naturally that doesn't mean all Pakistanis will find gang rape acceptable. The majority may find it despicable. But still there must be a reason why these crimes in Britain are predominantly carried out by Pakistanis; and part of the reason may well be because in parts of Pakistan where many may come from, it's more culturally acceptable to rape women than it is in most other communities in Britain.

The BBC featured a news story recently about how common violence against women is in Pakistan. It said the British government are giving Pakistan aid, and in the next couple of years, they want to focus it on improving the well-being of women.

It's possible to watch a news report about it on the BBC.

I'm aware that there are human rights activists in Pakistan trying to get things changed. I hope they succeed.

PoseidonsNet · Feb 18, 2012 at 8:56 AM

please see this thread as to the solution to the problem

http://www.frostcloud.com/forums/threads/how-to-help-he-meme-virus.29560/

;-j

Meme Virus · Feb 20, 2012 at 6:27 PM

Wow, has that horrid Poseidon put something else in this thread? Probably lots of sound and thunder about my supposed obvious BNP leanings and how his concern is all for the men being accused and their ethnic group; not one single pang of concern for the girls being victimised. I'd happily sit relaxed and unconcerned while witnessing the slow smashing of the heads of anyone who can read horrible stories about the traumatic ordeals of these girls and then condemn anyone who expresses concern for them, with no word of concern for the victims, as if they just don't matter a bit, and it's an absolute outrage that anyone should bring their suffering to light.

Here are a few more articles about the violence and ill-treatment perpetrated against women all too often in Pakistan.

PAKISTAN: Domestic violence endemic, but awareness slowly rising

It's on a website that says it is "humanitarian news and analysis - a service of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs"

Domestic violence is endemic in Pakistan. The New York-based Human Rights Watch, in one of the most detailed reports on domestic violence in the country published in 1999, found that up to 90 percent of women in Pakistan were subject to verbal, sexual, emotional or physical abuse, within their own homes.

Sadly, there is little evidence that the situation has improved dramatically eight years on. Asma Jahangir, a leading lawyer and rights activist, said: "Domestic violence is very widespread. It is tied in to the lack of empowerment of women in our society." ...

A study published in June 2006

in the Journal of the Pakistan Medical Association, based on interviews with 300 women admitted to hospital for childbirth, said 80 percent reported being subjected to some kind of abuse within marriage.

At times, the violence inflicted on women takes on truly horrendous forms. The Islamabad-based Progressive Women's Association (PWA), headed by Shahnaz Bukhari, believes up to 4,000 women are burnt each year, almost always by husbands or in-laws, often as “punishment” for minor “offences” or for failure to bring in a sufficient dowry.

The PWA said it had collected details of nearly 8,000 such victims from March 1994 to March 2007, from three hospitals in the Rawalpindi-Islamabad area alone.

Acid attack

Just recently in Karachi, Ameena Ali, 22, addressed a press conference at which she said her husband, Muhammad Ali, had splashed acid on her face, causing severe disfigurement and damage to her eye-sight.

Ameena, a mother of two small girls, who sought help from Madadgar, a non-governmental organisation dedicated in assisting abused women and children in Pakistan, said her husband suspected her of having extra-marital relations.

"He threw acid on her face and fled," wept Ameena's distraught mother, Kaneez Fatima. Her husband is currently in police custody, but Ameena is concerned he may attack her and his two daughters if he is released.

"Such cases are not unusual in our society," I.A. Rehman, director of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, told IRIN. ...

Reading articles like that, it seems no mystery as to why Pakistanis would be primarily responsible for gang rape and sexual grooming of girls in countries they emigrate to where women aren't treated as second-class citizens; they're taking their atitudes with them, or learning them from older relatives who were the ones who emigrated. If women are so commonly treated as second-class citizens in their society of origin, people raised in those traditions are almost bound to think of women as second-class citizens where they emigrate to. I don't mean everyone from the country will, just that the attitude is likely to be a lot more common in people from there, so ill-treatment of women by a higher-than-average number of people from that community can be expected.

The culture in Pakistan is very very different from ours indeed. For instance, there's this practice, which wouldn't be heard of in the West:

PAKISTAN: Focus on ‘vani’ – the practice of giving away young women to settle feuds

[Taken from the same UN website)

Mianwali, 16 March 2006 (IRIN) - Each day, Fareedullah Khan, nearly 70, reads items from the newspaper to his wife, Sakina Bibi, 60. The items he picks out from the columns of dense, Urdu-language print concern the custom of 'vani', or the giving away of girls in forced marriage to the male relatives of murder victims.

The traditional Pakistani practice is used as compensation for the crime and a means to settle feuds between two families or clans. The elderly couple has a reason to be interested. Nearly 20 years ago, their granddaughter became a 'vani' - to pay for a murder committed by her paternal uncle. She has since lived a life of misery, as a virtual slave within the home of a husband 30 years her senior.

ORIGINS

Today, her grandparents hope the brutal tribal custom can be ended. "It is a terrible thing. The girls handed over to rival families are innocent of crime, and they are always treated like enemies within the homes of their spouses," Fareedullah told IRIN. His wife nodded sadly, contemplating the fate of their favourite grandchild. Both fervently support a new campaign against the practice.

On 7 March, in Mianwali, a town of some 85,000 people in north-western Punjab, located 200 km south of the capital Islamabad, the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) organised a meeting to coincide with International Women's Day to speak out against 'vani'.

SPEAKING OUT

"Such customs thrive in oppressive environments," HRCP chairperson and human rights activist Asma Jahangir said during her speech. Many women at the meeting said they wanted to get the practice of ‘vani’ banned.

Women appear to be less tolerant of such practices today and are increasingly prepared to speak out against them.

THREE SISTERS

Late in 2005, in an incident that galvanised public opinion against 'vani', three sisters in the village of Sultanwala, in Mianwali district, took a bold stand against the practice, warning they would commit collective suicide if wed forcibly to men from a rival family.

The sisters, Abda, Amna and Sajda Khan, all still in their teens, and all well educated, were put forward for 'vani' 14 years ago, when they were still toddlers. Their uncle, Mohammad Iqbal Khan, had at the time killed his cousin and then gone into hiding to escape a death sentence.

A tribal council called to resolve the issue offered him a pardon – in exchange for five women from his family being handed over as 'vani' when they came of age to male members of the victim’s family. The women, then mere children, included Iqbal's own daughter, and his nieces, Abda, Amna and Sajda.

"I agreed only out of fear. If I had not done so, I would have been killed by now," says Iqbal, pointing out that his cousins live just across the road from his own house.

The practice has plenty of support in the region, where it is viewed as a way to prevent blood feuds that can continue for generations and claim dozens of lives.

But the Khan sisters are lucky – they have been supported by their father, Jehan Khan Niazi, who is determined his daughters will not pay for the crimes of others. He has moved the young women away from the village to protect them, and says: "I agreed to the custom at gun-point. But my daughters are innocent, and have their rights. They are educated, and this makes them able to stand up for justice." ...

Then there's this, which also suggests things about how cultural attitudes to women in Pakistan are very different:

Ladies first: Pink bus service for Pakistani women

Women commuters in Lahore can now travel in buses that do not allow male passengers onboard.

In Pakistan, women using public transport are often unable to board buses easily or find a seat, even in the ladies section, and many are subjected to harassment.

The pink buses are meant to provide women comfort and security while travelling on public transport.

Wow, women can't even go on buses there without the risk of serious harassment? Of course, any male who thinks it's acceptable to sexually harass women or do worse things to them over there will think it's acceptable to do what he does there over here.

It seems some counter-indoctrination is necessary - teaching boys from a young age that Nobody should be ill-treated on grounds of gender etc.

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