Philosophy of Yogic Concentration and Meditation

I think it's time for an intervention.

I'll hold him down.

I'll hold the feather. I always get to hold the feather.

I know a kid who knocks all the blocks over just to get everyone's attention. The other kids just set them all up again, arranged according to their personal tastes. The little brat comes along and repeats the offense, predictably, claiming of course the reason is because they aren't set up correctly, but never offering any real suggestions as to what the proper construction should be, or why. Obviously an excuse, for the real pleasure to him, is the destruction of it all.

Unfortunately the addict hears none of this because he is in denial and he has put all his friends on his "ignore list".

True that. Count me in.

As much as we hate to admit it, it hurts, doesn't it? Even if subconsciously, to be brushed aside, for thinking, is most painful. If not to you, it is to me, and I would feel horrible if doing it to another.

I'm sure of it. Who will deny this?

No doubt. Is it something that can be comfortably related in words? It was for you, not for me. I'm not sure it will make sense to me, but I'm very sure it does make sense to you. A presence upon you? A demon wrestled? A treasure bestowed? What "Is-ism" captured you for six weeks? How did it affect the who in you? Can it be shared effectively?

Initially it frustrated me - then I learned Mike's fear and I forgave him - now I share with Mike's victims the truth about Mike to protect them from the worst of his vitriolic verbal barrage.

Well...Mike of course.

So many questions so easily answered.

Sure. Not at all. It will, it does. In a sense. Yes - the best of them. Sort of. Yes, sort of. True'ism'. Freedom. Yes - if they are open to hearing it.

At twenty eight years of age I effectively turned off my atheism in an effort to try to answer a question - "What is the will to survive?" I had come up against a brick wall in trying to answer this question with my atheism insitu and I had studied spiritualism and history enough to see it being enacted all through history via all cultures to allow myself to run it through my equations as a potential reality. I allowed myself to believe in an underlying consciousness for the purposes of solving a perplexing problem.

So, I turned off my atheism and allowed a belief in God. I went back to the very beginnings of life on earth and rebuilt, via the evolutionary process, all of life from the first single cell to today and discovered that all life exists via a code of 'survive, extend your territory, procreate and evolve'. I found that the only rational explanation for the code to exist was that it was pre-written into every cell. I also discovered that all evolutionary advancements were intuitively, intelligently determined - they were no accident, no mutative advancement of a species 'just happened', they were too perfect for their environment.

This caused me to understand something fundamental - God was real but not what we thought - our God was the soul of the biosphere at the very least, our God existed within all living cells and essentially is us.

I found this to be very, very interesting because I was an atheist. I ran the equations again and again, I went down every highway and byway - everything made sense and worked if the underlying intuitive and intelligent entity were allowed to be - nothing made sense if it were not there or if God were made as an external force.

Then, in one split second, I went from being an avid atheist to being a believer.

Suddenly my soul was free to be and I could feel it swell in joy and wonder, it was incredible, it was so powerful, so relieving, so incredibly awesome - I was free to be me. My eyes glowed with spirit, I walked like my feet didn't touch the ground, my body sang, my heart swelled, my joy and love for all living flowed from me like I was the mighty Amazon river. Love replaced the fear in me, fear died that day.

This had an unexpected outcome, I let go all of my controlling attitudes and allowed my soul to do as it will, I let go of my control of my brain functions and allowed my brain to do its job without me, my soul just trusted its intuitive essence and rolled along with life rather than struggled along with it. What happened next was startling.

This new information, God was real, was such a fundamental shift in my core knowledge to the degree that I could feel it being written into my core knowledge - once it was in place my brain cross-referenced against it saying "if that is true then how does this effect that core information?" Like a blur my mind cross referenced this new information against my old information and would brook no interference with the process - for six weeks the this occurred, for six weeks new answers poured into me due to that one breakthrough - for six weeks I blurted out this new information to the amazement of all around me. I didn't stop talking for six weeks, I virtually couldn't, if it weren't for the fact that what I was saying was spellbinding and so true my friends and family would have locked me up with the psychiatrists to play with and experiment on.

When Mike describes Samadhi I 'know' of what he talks about personally as what he describes I went through - he doesn't believe me, that is his issue and not my own.

When Mike describes concentration in the way he does, along with its benefits, I know that it is a match with my childhood which was spent in fear and an anxiousness to be perfect at everything - the concentration I applied from my earliest years to observing the interactions between people and to just people themselves is incredible when I think back on it. The upshot - I now 'know' people through and through and I'm the second best mimic I know.

Anyway Quin - that's my Samadhi story

The Mind

Ben,

We touched bases a while back and I must say we certainly agree on the basics.

What a pleasure it is to know you and read your take on the world in your words. What I like about your rendering of the wonder of life that we are is that you appreciate its miracle without worshiping it as beyond any understanding. To believe we could completely grasp it would be an atheist or scientific view. But to think it is beyond any understanding is also wrong. You take the balanced view celebrating the mystery without being completely humbled or stymied by it.

We can dig deeper into the mystery of life that is, as you say, a necessary part of the functioning of every cell and this work is simply an extension of Plato's plaintive to know thyself.

This journey of questioning by the mind is philosophy at its best and is not itself a conclusion that we are our minds as in Mike's criticism but is instead a recognition that the mind/brain is a legitimate tool for helping us understand the deepest mysteries of our being.

gala-tomic

I get very inspired by reading that. I needed to hear it again. I'm glad you depicted the benefit over the mechanics. It inspired me to pull out the Bhagavad-Gita and read a little scripture. Chapter 12 in particular speaks to this thread.

Verse 5 speaks to Mikes mechanics.
"For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."


It goes on to illustrate many paths to achieve enlightenment. Meditation being only one.

Verse 10
"If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will come to the perfect stage".

Verse 12
"If you cannot take to this practice, then engage yourself in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, however, is meditation, and better than meditation is the renunciation of the fruits of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of mind."

Verse 13-14
"One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me - such a devotee of Mine is very dear to Me".

That is one of the reasons that Frostcloud has remained on my radar, through Frostcloud I have met several people who's minds are free to do their own thinking rather than just regurgitate what has been taught to them as though it were never to be questioned - imagination is not encouraged in society as it really should be.

Interesting that you say we agree on the basics - which is absolutely true, having read your previous posts here avidly - because I have found much joy in discovering so many bright minds who have travelled different roads to arrive at the same basic conclusions. There has been continued validation that we are all on the same path with a universal premise supporting the core of our theories - that is that there is an underlying intuitively, and intelligently, aware essence which acts individually as well as collectively dependant on circumstances.

It was through recognising that all spiritually based religions held the same core premise of soul and greater soul that I was able to let go of my ridiculing nature and explore this common ground - I found they were all essentially correct but were marred by their own personal myths and legends and their willingness to fight to the death to protect their own 'true' version.

More and more have I come to realise that the world is waking up to the reality of a spiritual oneness and it probably requires us to drop our own personal myths as to what that oneness is and just agree on the aspects that we all seem to recognise as true. How it is true is generally clever speculation and should be encouraged and applauded but not fought over and asserted as true.

I love all of our theories but most of all I love what we do agree on collectively, the core elements, the basic fundamentals - there is much satisfaction through validation there - I feel blessed to have found a place so open to allowing intelligent, visual, imaginative and deductive people to express themselves without moderators doing more than removing the slanderous and crude types.

Thank you for saying so Galato (I hope you don't mind the way I found a cute way of saying your name), you're right, I love the wonder of life in but I continue to exist as part of it rather than in awe of it, I continue to seek to extend my understanding rather then to fall at the feet of its majesty in supplication - the reason? Because we are it and I feel the power of it, it is my power too, it is much, much better that way.

Balance and timing are everything to me - if I see something which works well one way I automatically know that it works equally as well the other way - which method I choose to use, given any circumstance, is relative to the circumstances but you can pretty well count on me to remain positive and good as I know these methods return the greater rewards personally as well as collectively.

To know thyself - that was one of my most arduous tasks, to psychologically, behaviourally and spiritually determine who and what I was. I found freedom at the end of that road - and it was guud!

But, as you say, the wonder doesn't stop there, it's actually astounding when you recognise the depth of the make-up of the living body, when you get down to the cell and realise that what constitutes the cell has form and the search must continue on and on into the seemingly infinite depths - ever smaller and smaller until you realise the body is as intricate and small in its component parts as the universe itself is as large.

Exactly right Galato, our greater soul has determined we have a brain/mind and delivered it to us via evolutionary means, I believe that the greater soul is turning that apparatus on itself in an ever more collective way and it's just beginning to recognise that it is staring at itself. The ghost in the machine is beginning to realise that it is the ghost in the machine.

Always a pleasure Galato

Thank you for saying as much Quin, I hope you read the above to Galatomic as though I was speaking to you as well because I was. Galatomic is someone you will deeply appreciate, he also has walked a road which brought him to Rome, his road is very interesting and you would do well to bend an ear if he deigns to share it with you because within it you will recognise much of your own work.

I bought the Bhagavad-Gita from a shaved head spiritual fellow about 15 years ago, he held it out in front of me as I was walking past him, I was open to it and began to take it from his hand as I went my way but he did not release his grip and he brought me to a stop - lol - he went on to tell me a little about what he was doing and he asked for a small donation at the end of his pitch - I gave him $20.00 and made him very happy. But I never read it.

I have had countless opportunities to throw it away or even to sell it but I never did, I moved from city to city, place to place and always considered it and packed it away to one day read - you, my friend, just inspired me to read it. Thank you.

Thus the true purpose for this thread is revealed! Whatever God is, Shiva, Kirsna, Jesus, Jehovah, Odin, The Way... Bob... Whatever God is, it is thrifty and works in mysterious ways. Nothing goes to waste with God, the master economist. God must be using Mike Dubbeld as a tool to finally move Ben Burkhill to see a return on his initial $20 investement.

Why didn't I see this before!

We all owe Mike our gratitude. He has mine, and I mean that. He presented us all with an open opportunity to discuss this matter. An opportunity free of his insistence... What could be better?

Mike,

You said, "I know you
have experienced it to some extent but nothing like what I am talking about." with reference to having crown chakra activity.

Can you elaborate on this please?

Well I guess I was wrong or you led me to believe you could do more than you can. As I have said many times I have been conned that way a few times already and is why I don't make any attempt to tell anyone beyond what is needed to known. And even then, people generally don't recognize it or believe it and reading the same words it is useless/cannot be understood by people that have not reached specific stages in yoga anyway. Yogic philosophy is incidental. Yoga is a hands on activity and it is through experience that progress is made. No amount of intellectual understanding of any kind brings progress in yoga. It is only when the words come alive in experience that they amount to more than a pile of beans. As Subramunia is fond of saying, mystical things are not taught. They are caught.

What do you think someone that does not practice yoga thinks about things like chakras and bandhas? They are just cute little ideas that may or may not mean anything. When a group of people practice yoga and use the words to describe states of awareness, the language they use among themselves simply cannot be understood by outsiders. "Pull mulband". The postures and breathing serve to operate on nerve plexes along the spine and produce various states of consciousness. By performing the exercises in specific orders various states of awareness are achieved.

When certatin stages of achievement are had by the practitioner, certain peculiar things happen to them. WHEN those things happen it is time to explain what they are and what it means and what to do next to make further progress. WHEN you tell me certain things, I will tell you certain things and not before. It is like learning to play a musical instrument. WHEN you learn your lesson/can play a certain piece of music the music teacher gives you a more advanced lesson. It would be pointless to try something more advanced. I am not your teacher. I am saying that you say that I say the same thing over and over - and I am saying I have no reason to do otherwise. I am saying that you are doing 'something' but I don't know what and so unlike a class that practices together all the time and is on the same sheet of music using the same vocabulary, what you say and mean I am in no position to know - however - that does not mean for a second that I cannot identify the progress you have made regardless of whatever it is you are doing.

Sanskrit scholars have great detail of the intricate practices of yoga including historical perspective. Yet it is incredibly obvious to me which of these scholars is an actual practitioner because the non-practitioner says things that are blatantly obviously wrong and actually pretty funny - even so other Sanskrit scholars would tend to take them seriously being just as deluded (and just as funny).

When I saw famous yoga authors like Mircea Eliade (his famous Yoga Immortality and Freedom book) that have extensive knowledge of the history of yoga and its practices making AGREGIOUSLY funny mistakes, it was then I realized how prevalent confusion is about yoga even among its scholars. They as non-practitioners are unable to discriminate between the rhetoric and mistake the often times flowery metaphors used in esoteric yoga for rather shallow ostensible things (the story of Moby Dick is a story of a whale). I would like to point out that most of my detailed knowledge of yoga from a historical perspective I owe to Georg Feuerstein (Sanskrit scholar and author of The Yoga Tradition which I refer to often).

I already told you twice before, there was a point in my life when I wondered how I would know the progress of other people in yoga - after all - there are scores of people doing many different things. I read the book Kundalini Evolution and Enlightenment and found testimonials by some famous people in that book. The book however does not discriminate between scholarly intellectual knowledge fame and guru fame. When I read their accounts it was as clear to me as night from day who was simply an intellectual/scholar from who had made actual progress in yoga. The things these people that made progress in yoga by all their different means COULD NOT HAVE SAID what they did had they not have achieved certain states in yoga. From that point on I knew I no longer need wonder about who has achieved what in yoga.

When people in the hundreds of yoga classes I attended come out of their daydream meditation they are such great liars!!! People that do actual concentration leading to meditation LOOK RIGHT THROUGH these people. The funny part is these people not having made one iota of progress but lying about it believe that since they did nothing but daydream, it follows that everyone else did the same daydreaming and thus think that they can fool everyone just like all their friends. You may need to go to these classes and attend them to get to meet an actual guru like I did (Guru Vyasa in Washington DC for instance) but the other people in the class are actually more of a distraction than anything else. They come to class to stretch and do deep breathing and relax and socialize. Thats about it. And the same students asked the very patient guru the same stupid questions over and over again in various forms year after year never grasping what he was saying. Very pathetic. I guess most people need to bond with another person for years before they even begin to think what they say might be true. In contrast, I don't want to bond with anyone. I want people to tell me something and see how long it takes to blow holes in it/find out how true it is. That is why I was attracted to the eternal wisdom of yoga to begin with. That is why I don't compare silly ass philosophers with gurus. What philosophers say can be easily shot to pieces for the most part.

Philosophers believing themselves to be their mind do not talk about things like maya/the world as a dream. They think the dream is real/cannot separate themselves from it/do not even know they are participants in it. We as minds are all dreaming openly. Like the Aquarian Tarot "Hanged Man" card. The man hangs upside down by one foot tied to a rope strung to a beam. But he seems unconcerned. There is no discomfort seen in his face. In fact he seems to fancy himself in this position because his other foot is smartly tucked up against the leg that is tied and his arms are clasped stylishly behind his back as he hangs. The man is 'hung up' in his karma. Unable to recognize he is bound by it. I think this card translates into the Fool Card in the regular Tarot.

More mechanics... Where's the beef?

Describe one please, and how it's any different than a vision quest in a sweat lodge. So far, I've been given no end result, no real reason to pursue any of this. What purpose does it serve? What has it actually done for you other than encourage the empty crow of a braggart?

Does it give cause to feel as one with the homeless? Does it promote empathy for your fellow man? How does "concentration" compare with the power of clanking ladles in the soup kitchen? What does meditation offer me that's more beneficial than the smile given by a wrinkled broken old man who's life is scarred by past addictions and a family that refuses to speak to him? He has NOTHING!!! Yet takes the time to say thank you for the paltry gruel that's poured in his bowl. Will your yoga bring me closer to him?

Mother Theresa died with twisted and broken feet. She could not bear to see a good pair of donated shoes beneath her own legs when a child was running barefoot in the gravel beside her. "Why did you come to Harlem?" the press asked. "Are you setting up a church?" they questioned. "Will you speak with the Mayor?" they dared.

"I came to join them in their suffering" was all she had to say. No big interviews. No lofty processes designed to belittle others. Insulting no one, she gave herself, and in that way, she loved them.

Indeed

You know I am sitting here talking about this but only because someone has a CLUE about yoga. But yet at the same time, in theory a person could shift gear into relating yoga to mathematics (no - not going to happen I know). That is why I went into mathematics. Mantra and yantra. Nama rupa. Name and form. Platonic forms. For evey vibration there is a form and vice versa. That is why I am looking into quantum field theory. Fourier analysis of waves. Holographic reality - what are the subtle differences between it and the Standard Model of Particle Physics? Superstring theory and other dimensions? How can someone do something like that? I am not lost in a maze of data. I already have a very sound basis of metaphysics in place and USE them to attempt to uncover things that cannot be recognized by other people hypnotized by wrong ass umptions programmed into their minds by their family, friends and teachers who never had the benefit of exposure to things gurus talk about. I am on a mission. I am not looking for friends. I am on a one track mission for what is true. All the rest is basically cute nonsense/not interesting. When I learn something it STICKS until it can be shown to be wrong. When I talk to you people I REMEMBER what I said to you believe it or not. I am trying to say that not only am I not blown away by any or all of the above, it is so boring to me entertainment I find in your words. (like stumpy over there likes to pull on the pig tails of thelma in the 3'rd row 4'th seat back). Thats how easy it is for me/someone that could go far further in all the above/it is effortless dealing with you people. (Especially now that most of you have earned my ignore list !! LOL.)

Why would I burden myself with things like leadership and political correctness. Relationships? Who wants to know what time the hot dog stand opens on Sunday? Who wants to know what you think of x at time t? Your personality to me is a NIGHTMARE. You think you are your personality worse yet. You are a hotdog stand that likes to change your hours on a day to day basis. I don't want to get to know your hours/personality. Go tell your mommy. She cares. I don't. I want to know the validity of 1 + 1 was true before the universe came into being and will still be true when it is gone. I want to know about truths that don't change. (ABCDEFGGGGGGGGGG) Not your hot dog stand hours nonsense. Not your silly ass personality that changes from instant to instant. You people talk like you were born yesterday.

Western Philosophy and the Veil of Maya

Excuse me, Mike is completely misinformed.

Gala-tomic