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  #1  
Old 03-25-2006, 07:15 AM
dattaswami dattaswami is offline
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Post God-Subjective & Objective view points

This entire Universe is objective because the Creator is the subject and the Creation is the object. Any item in the Creation is also object. The human body is the most convenient object. Through such human body only the Lord should be meditated upon and should be served. The subjective God (Creator) is beyond words, mind, intelligence, logic and imagination as said in Veda. Gita says that if one approaches the subjective God directly, he will end in misery (Avyakthahi Gatih Duhkham…). This verse in Gita means that the souls having human bodies cannot worship the subjective God directly because such worship leads only to misery. You cannot even imagine the subjective God. When the approach is subjective, the mind is destroyed as said in Gita in the above verse. Only the objective approach will give happiness because there is no difficulty in capturing the God through an object. Since you are an object, you can capture the boundaries of another object through your mind. Any object is within the four-dimensional space-time model. The subjective God is beyond the dimensions of space and time. When you try to capture the subjective God, the mind is unable to catch Him and undergoes lot of difficulties leading into strain that destroys the mind. But when you experience God through a human being you will not have any strain in capturing God who is identified with the object. When the subjective God is not at all experienced, how His characteristic sign, which is Bliss, can be experienced? You are not seeing the Sun directly and how can you enjoy the heat or light? Even if the Sun is not seen directly if an illuminated lens by Sun is seen, you are enjoying the light and heat atleast in small quantities in reality. When the Sun is completely hidden by the clouds, neither Sun nor his heat nor his light is experienced. Bliss is defined as the continuous happiness, which is infinitely intensive. You may mistake sometimes the temporary happiness also as Bliss. When you have not tasted the infinitely intensive happiness, you may misunderstand even a small shadow of the bliss (happiness) as bliss itself. Moreover, the bliss of yourself is not the highest goal. You must please the Lord and pleasing the Lord must be highest goal. Therefore, your experience of the bliss need not be necessarily the pleasure of the God. The Bliss can be obtained from materialistic things like drink etc. Only the divine knowledge followed by the divine love and bliss can give you the identity of the Lord. But once you recognized the Lord by the knowledge, love and bliss, your aim should be the service of the Lord through which the Lord must be pleased. In service you may not have the bliss or sometimes-you may have to face even lot of unhappiness. Jesus told that unless one detaches even from his life for His sake, he couldn’t be His dearest disciple. But you should feel all that unhappiness as your happiness if your unhappiness in terms of service pleases the Lord. You must have patient analysis and power of discrimination in the search of the truth. Your aim should not be the attainment of bliss but making the Lord blissful through your service and sacrifice. If this ultimate goal is realized, the soul gets the top most place in the heart of the Lord.

You have entered the heart of the Lord deeply through your proven love towards the Lord in the very first step itself. The Lord wants sincerely to hold on you in the path of the truth. The Lord does not want to use any super power in this matter because the path of the knowledge and devotion should be spontaneous, natural and real. The final result of the effort of Swami thus depends only in the power of your discrimination and on your patience to analyze in search of the truth. You will have firm faith only when the divine knowledge helps you as a fertilizer to germinate the devotion and also acts as a pesticide to remove worm like attractions and illusions of Saturn, who always tries to take away the sheep from the Lord like a wolf or a fox.

At Thy Lotus Feet His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony

www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace
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  #2  
Old 03-25-2006, 08:50 AM
Mike Dubbeld Mike Dubbeld is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
This entire Universe is objective because the Creator is the subject and the Creation is the object. Any item in the Creation is also object. The human body is the most convenient object. Through such human body only the Lord should be meditated upon and should be served. The subjective God (Creator) is beyond words, mind, intelligence, logic and imagination as said in Veda. Gita says that if one approaches the subjective God directly, he will end in misery (Avyakthahi Gatih Duhkham…). This verse in Gita means that the souls having human bodies cannot worship the subjective God directly because such worship leads only to misery. You cannot even imagine the subjective God. When the approach is subjective, the mind is destroyed as said in Gita in the above verse. Only the objective approach will give happiness because there is no difficulty in capturing the God through an object. Since you are an object, you can capture the boundaries of another object through your mind. Any object is within the four-dimensional space-time model. The subjective God is beyond the dimensions of space and time. When you try to capture the subjective God, the mind is unable to catch Him and undergoes lot of difficulties leading into strain that destroys the mind. But when you experience God through a human being you will not have any strain in capturing God who is identified with the object. When the subjective God is not at all experienced, how His characteristic sign, which is Bliss, can be experienced?
God cannot be imagined by the mind is right. Thoughts have forms, to have a form is a limitation. To have a limitation on God is not correct. But objects can be used to recollect God and that is why ritual is important. When I visit a grave, I do not visit the person down in the ground. But the grave reminds me of them. Church reminds me of God in the same way as do holy symbols.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
bliss of yourself is not the highest goal. You must please the Lord and pleasing the Lord must be highest goal. Therefore, your experience of the bliss need not be necessarily the pleasure of the God.
This is playing with words. God is bliss. But you cannot simply eat a gallon of ice cream and call it bliss from God. It is but like all other bliss from attachment/desire to things and conditions in the world it leads to suffering. God is not different from us. God is not one thing and we another. The soul as Atman or Purusha has all the qualities of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
The Bliss can be obtained from materialistic things like drink etc. Only the divine knowledge followed by the divine love and bliss can give you the identity of the Lord. But once you recognized the Lord by the knowledge, love and bliss, your aim should be the service of the Lord through which the Lord must be pleased.
We are the Lord. Not our ego-mind-personalities but our immortal indestructible souls as Atman or Purusha. Pleasing ‘the Lord’ is playing with words. God does not have emotions. That is creating God in our image. That is limitations we as ego-minds impose on God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
In service you may not have the bliss or sometimes-you may have to face even lot of unhappiness.
We are not here for happiness. We are here to recollect our true Identities. Selfless service is a tool to do that. It is not an end unto itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
Jesus told that unless one detaches even from his life for His sake, he couldn’t be His dearest disciple. But you should feel all that unhappiness as your happiness if your unhappiness in terms of service pleases the Lord. You must have patient analysis and power of discrimination in the search of the truth. Your aim should not be the attainment of bliss but making the Lord blissful through your service and sacrifice. If this ultimate goal is realized, the soul gets the top most place in the heart of the Lord.
More like it, the mind becomes fit for concentration such that meditation leading to samadhi and Self-Realization can occur. The rest is nothing more than preparation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
You have entered the heart of the Lord deeply through your proven love towards the Lord in the very first step itself. The Lord wants sincerely to hold on you in the path of the truth. The Lord does not want to use any super power in this matter because the path of the knowledge and devotion should be spontaneous, natural and real. The final result of the effort of Swami thus depends only in the power of your discrimination and on your patience to analyze in search of the truth. You will have firm faith only when the divine knowledge helps you as a fertilizer to germinate the devotion and also acts as a pesticide to remove worm like attractions and illusions of Saturn, who always tries to take away the sheep from the Lord like a wolf or a fox.
Saturn is baloney like Satan in the Bible. The only Saturn is our own egos. There is no evil only ignorance. There is no sin but only cause and effect. The purpose of life is to experience and learn until you recognize you are the creator of all you attract/re-cognize your omniscient Self.

Religions are a mish-mash of dogma and do not know what the problem is.

Mike Dubbeld
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  #3  
Old 03-25-2006, 11:47 AM
dattaswami dattaswami is offline
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Post re;

Mike Dubbeld;

The existence of I requires the existence of awareness, which is the nervous energy. In deep sleep there is no existence of nervous energy and therefore there is no question of the existence of I in that state. The I require the awareness of itself. This awareness or nervous energy is a special form of inert energy only. The inert energy produced by the chemicals in the brain flowing through nervous system becomes the awareness or nervous energy. The rain water fallen in the river Ganga is called as the sacred Ganga. The same rain water fallen in a tank is called as tank water. In deep sleep the energy existing in other systems is called as the heat of the body. Thus, there is no difference between the heat energy and nervous energy in the fundamental essence. When the nervous energy is absent, the feelings are also absent which are called vasanas or samskaras.

But the same feelings exist in the form of Gunas, which are the pulses stored by the inert energy existing in the brain. The qualities exist like a computer chip in the computer. Then the computer is not in the state of working because in that state the electricity is not flowing in the computer. This electricity can be treated as the nervous energy, which is absent in the deep sleep. The chip in the computer is in the form of material and this material is the brain. The pulses are in the form of inert energy. This inert energy can be even called as matter from the angle of a scientist. The scientist does not distinguish matter and energy at this level of inert energy. Thus, the Jeeva, who is a bundle of qualities, exists as a bundle of pulses called as “Sphotas” by the Hindu scriptures (Sastras). These pulses are stored by the inert energy called as chittam.

You are not aware of any information stored by chittam. These pulses are the waves of the inert energy. Thus, the very material of pulse is the inert energy. Therefore, the material of these pulses is chittam. You can call chittam as matter in the micro state as per the terminology of a scientist. When the same chittam or inert energy flows in the nervous system, the same chittam is called as nervous energy or awareness. Thus, basically there is no difference between the awareness and inert energy. The same inert energy when flows in a superior part of the brain in doing decisions is called as intelligence (Buddhi). The same inert energy flowing in nervous system becomes aware of itself is called as egoism (Ahankara). The same inert energy flowing in the nervous system, aware of other objects or other information is called as mind (Manas).

The mind, intelligence and egoism can be treated as awareness or nervous energy because in these three faculties the awareness of other objects (as in the case of mind and intelligence) or the awareness of it self (as in the case of egoism) exist. But, in the case of faculty of chittam in the state of inert energy, the awareness does not exist. Therefore, you are not aware of the information stored by chittam. Whenever, a particular part of the information is required by the other three faculties, that part of information is supplied by chittam to these three faculties. Such supply of part of information is called as memory (Smranam). When the part of information is supplied by chittam, the part of information is transferred from the inert energy to the awareness or nervous energy.

Once the part of information is caught by the awareness, the part of information is memorised. Here you have to carefully analyse the concept. The points in this concept are 1) the part of information is stored in the inert energy as a pulse and during the time of storage the part of information is not remembered because the energy that stores the part of information is only the inert energy and not awareness. 2) When the part of information is stored in the inert energy, you are not aware of the information either in the deep sleep or in the awakened state. 3) When you are recollecting that information, the awareness is bringing out that from the tank of inert energy called as Chittam. 4) While bringing that information, the awareness is also carrying it on and storing the information in itself for some time and during this time the awareness can also be treated as store of information and can be called as Chittam temporarily.

These points give you the conclusion that chittam, which is the storing energy (capacitor) is in the form of inert energy permanently as well as awareness temporarily. During the deep sleep, the chittam is no doubt inert energy only. But even during the awakened state, when you are not recollecting the information, the information lies in the inert energy only. Therefore, the inert energy-form of chittam is constant during the deep sleep as well as during the awakened state. The RAM in the computer is always present whether the computer is working or not. But during the awakened state, at the time of recollecting the information, the awareness also acts like a RAM temporarily while registering the information on the screen. During this time the awareness can be also called as chittam. Therefore, the characteristic of chittam is storage, whether the chittam is in the form of inert energy or awareness. The awareness-form of Chittam is temporary as it is limited to the awakened state or dream state. In the state of meditation there is no question of storage of information by awareness because the awareness is not aware of any other thing and it is aware of itself only.

It is stated that chittam has another function apart from storage (Smaranam). The other function is receiving the information (Samjnanam). The awareness (Chittam) is receiving the information from the tank of inert energy containing all the information or the same type of awareness receives the information from the external world also. Thus, the awareness working in receiving the information from the internal store of inert energy or from external world is called chittam.

Actually, the energy is always inert because it has no independence and is working as per the direction of God. Therefore, the energy is always inert. Work is a form of energy according to science. According to science, matter is also a form of energy. Therefore, energy, work and matter are inert items only. The energy is doing different works according to the different systems or machines in which the energy exists. The current is same and it does work of cutting through a cutting machine and does work of printing though a printing machine. Therefore, the same inert energy flowing through nervous system does a specific work and this specific work is called as awareness. Thus, awareness is a special work of the same inert energy, which is flowing in the nervous system. The same inert energy flowing through lungs does mechanical work by contractions and expansions. When the awareness is aware of itself (Ahankara), such awareness is the self-spin of the energy, which is also work. Thus, the egoism (Ahankara) is work only. When this same inert energy is vibrating with discussions (Sankalpa and Vikalpa), such vibrational work is called as mind (Manas).

Finally, when the energy is revolving in a constant direction, it is the work of determination and such work is called as intelligence (Buddhi). When the same inert energy stores the information by itself by revolutions, such work is called as chittam, which is out of the nervous system. But the inert energy in this state still exists in a part of the brain. The same inert energy while flowing through nervous system may also store the information and is also called as chittam. The same awareness (Inert energy through nervous system), while receiving the information from its inert form or from the external world is also called as chittam. Thus, chittam is in two forms. One form is inert energy, which is constant, and another form is awareness, which does not exist, in deep sleep. Chittam also does two types of work. One type of work is storing the information and another type of work is receiving information. Chittam in its two forms (inert and awareness) does storage type of work. Chittam in its awareness-form only does the work of receiving the information. As long as the inert energy flows in the nervous system, chittam is in the form of awareness. But when the nervous system is shut down, chittam remains in its basic form of inert energy in a specific part of the brain.

When the inert energy is flowing in the nervous system it does other types of work like mind, intelligence and egoism. Therefore, awareness is a specific form of work of inert energy, when it flows in a specific machine called as nervous system. This awareness is in the form of the four Antahkaranams called mind, intelligence, egoism and chittam. Thus, awareness is a specific work of inert energy and the various types of specific work are the four Antahkaranams. Here the scientist includes brain also in the nervous system. I have made a temporary sub-division of brain and nervous system to distinguish the two forms of Chittam for the sake of convenience. Again a scientist understands the various types of work of awareness in the view of interaction between energy and matter. The matter here is the various types of biological cells. This is the view of a biologist. For a physicist the matter and energy are one and the same at a deeper level. I have represented the works in terms of energy neglecting the difference between matter and energy at this deeper level of physics.

You have met your friend and he told you that he would marry after one year. Now the awareness received this information as chittam (Samjnam). This information is not stored by awareness in itself. It is passed on to a specific part of the brain where the inert energy, which is also called as chittam, stores this information. Now the information has gone out of awareness. Therefore, you are not remembering the information either in the awakened state or in the dream state or in the meditation state. In these three states only awareness exists. In the state of deep sleep the awareness does not exist and in this state there is no question of remembering that information. After some days somebody asked you about the marriage of your friend. Now you will remember that information by recollection. Now what is happening? Your awareness is going to the specific part of the brain and is collecting back that information. During this stage of re-collection (Smaranam), the awareness is also receiving the information (Samjnam). Thus, recollection is always followed by receiving. Receiving can be done even alone without recollection i.e., when you are receiving some new information it is not recollection but only collection of information (Samjnam).

In deep sleep the computer is shut down and only the chip exists in the computer. This means that the nervous system is shut down. The inert energy in the brain, which is storing all-important informations, is only leftover. Since the nervous system is shut down the inert energy is not flowing in the nervous system and therefore the specific work or awareness is not produced. The concept of I is only a type of work in the state of awareness. When the awareness is absent, this special type of work cannot take place and therefore the concept of I cannot exist. But the concept of I is stored as a bit of information in the inert energy in the brain.

But since such inert energy is not awareness, the concept of I is not experienced in deep sleep. When the person awakes from the deep sleep, the inert energy carrying on the pulse of the concept of I flows in the nervous system. Since the nervous system is functioning and since such functioning is awareness, the awareness of I is generated i.e., you feel about yourself. When a mad man awakes, the inert energy flows through the nervous system but this pulse is absent because it is not stored in the brain. Therefore, when a mad man awakes, he does not experience or feel about himself. Similarly, a small child also does not feel about itself. Therefore, after the deep sleep when the inert energy flows from the brain through the working nervous system, those pulses, which are stored in the brain, can only be carried on into the nervous system and such pulses can be only experienced. Therefore, if you are not a mad man or a child, the concept of I exists in the brain as a pulse (signal) but you are not experiencing that pulse because the energy in your brain is inert and is not in the form of awareness since the nervous system is shut down. In the case of a mad man or a child the concept of I does not exist even in the awakened state and the Advaita Scholar is worried about the existence of the concept of I in the deep sleep!

What is soul or Atman or causal body? Is it the awareness present in the nervous system? Or is it the inert energy present in the brain? The concept of I exists in both. The egoism ‘I’ exists as a pulse in the brain in the inert energy and the same pulse exists in nervous system being experienced. If you say that the soul is awareness, it is born every day and it dies every day. This is the soul from one angle, which is mentioned by Gita (Athachainam Nityajatam…). Please note that this view is mentioned as an angle and is never condemned by Gita. From another angle, it is the inert energy present in the brain, which is eternal as mentioned in Gita (Ajo Nityah…). Awareness in the nervous system is in the form of work. Inert energy in the brain is in the form of energy. In one angle the soul is specific work and in another angle soul is inert energy. Energy and work are inter-convertible and both are the same entity in different forms. Therefore, essentially it does not matter, whether you take the soul as work or energy.

According to science even the matter is a form of energy only. Therefore, the gross body, which exists in deep sleep, is as good as the inert energy in brain or as good as the awareness in the basic sense in the nervous system. The gross body made of matter, the subtle body made of pulses (whether in the state of inert energy or in the state of awareness) and the causal body which is the inert energy in the brain or awareness in the nervous system are one and the same and come under one category called as creation. The condensed energy is matter. Work is another form of the same energy. A scientist does not distinguish these three states. These three are the different forms of creation and creation is different from creator. Your analysis of these three states is of no use because you are dancing only in the same medium of creation with out touching the creator.

Creation itself is work. It is work of the God. The working material is energy or matter or both. Energy and matter are also different works of God only. God is unimaginable and the work is imaginable. The link between work and God is again unimaginable. The link between a person and work is imaginable because both person and work are imaginable. Thus, there is no example in this world to imagine the God or to imagine the link with His work. Only the work is imaginable through which you can be sure of the existence of God. Thus, this wonderful Universe, which is the work of the God, proves the existence of God but the analysis of Universe neither gives any information about God nor any information about the link of Universe with God. The Universe indicates the existence of God but neither gives the information of God nor the experience of God. After realising the existence of God, you can experience God through some item of the creation into which God entered. The best item of the Universe is the human being through which you can experience God and also clarify your doubts with God directly. If God exist in every human being, every human being should clarify your doubts. In fact since you are also one of the human beings and since God is in yourself also, you should clarify your own doubts, which means that you should not get any doubt and therefore no human being should have any doubt. Therefore, God enters into a specific human being only like Krishna or Jesus etc., who can alone clarify all your doubts and through whom alone you can experience God.

In the deep sleep both matter and inert energy exist. The gross body as matter and the normal heat of the body as inert energy clearly exist in the deep sleep. In deep sleep the work of inert energy and various systems like blood circulation, respiration etc., also exist. Even the nervous system exists but it does not function. Therefore, the work-form of energy through nervous system called as awareness only does not exist. Due to this the qualities (Gunas) and the feelings (Vasanas and Samskaras) are not lost because they are stored as inert pulses in the inert energy of brain. The life energy, inert energy and the inert matter are inter convertible forms. These are the three phases of the same component. Ice, water and water vapour are the three phases of the same component called the H2O compound. The creation is the component and the matter, energy and work are the three phases of the same creation. All the three phases are inter convertible. Veda says “Annat Purushah” which means that the food is converted into life energy or awareness. The food is both inert matter and inert energy. The energy is always active and is a form of work.

In the matter also the rotations, vibrations and revolutions of particles are constantly taking place. Awareness is only a special type of work of the energy in a special design of matter called nervous system. Therefore, the inter conversion is easily acceptable. Of course, this inter conversion of food into awareness is out of the control of man but that does not mean the inter conversion is incorrect. Therefore, for the generation of awareness, both matter and energy are required. In deep sleep the matter and energy exist but the matter (Nervous system) is not functioning. At the time of death the inert energy along with matter in very subtle form comes out as a replica of this human body, which is called as Prana Sariram by Veda (Manomayah Prana sareraneta…). This body called as Prana Sarira contains the inert energy (Tejas) and subtle matter in the form of all the systems.

Therefore, the materialised nervous system in very subtle state also exists in the energetic body. Such body is called as energetic body because the part of matter is very very little and most part of the body is only energy. Since the nervous system is present, the awareness exists and therefore the mind exists. In this state of fear of death, the awareness is terribly vibrating and therefore most of the awareness is in the state of mind only. When the body is going to hell, the portion of matter is relatively more and it is called as Yatana Sariram. When it is going to the moon (Pitru Loka) the energy part is still more. When it is going to upper heaven the energy part still increases. When it is going to other higher worlds most of the body is energy only. When it is going to Brahma Loka, the body is almost full of energy only and is radiating. The body going to heaven is called as Bhoga Sariram.

The body going to Brahma Loka is Divya Sariram. In all these bodies, since the portion of Tamas (Matter) is very little, the state of sleep is absent. These bodies are mainly made of Rajas (Energy) and awareness (Sattvam). The angels have energetic bodies and do not have sleep and therefore, they are said to have motionless eyelids (Animeshah). Thus, in the case of these bodies, the soul is eternal whether it is in the form of inert energy or awareness.

According to science when you analyse this entire Universe, it consists of matter, energy and work. Space is a form of energy. Solid, liquid and gas are the three states of matter. Fire is energy. Light, heat, electricity, magnetism etc., are the various form of energy. Mechanical work is a form of work. Awareness is a special form of work. Therefore, finally you have the three forms, which are matter, energy and work. All these are inter convertible. Matter is a condensed form of energy and therefore matter can be treated as energy. Energy is always active and action is work. Therefore, matter and energy can be treated as the two forms of work. But work requires the working material and power or force, which is energy. But again the working material and power are energy only.

But the energy is essentially work only. Therefore, science ends with the work, which is independent. But we do not see any work, which is independent without matter and energy. Therefore, this entire creation, which is essentially the work only requires the working material and force behind it. This working material and force are unimaginable and are called as the unimaginable God (Para Brahman). The entire creation is only the dance (work) of Lord Siva, who stands for Para Brahman. Para Brahman or the unimaginable God is hidden in the energetic body of Siva and therefore we say that Lord Siva stands for Para Brahman. Otherwise if you take Siva as the body, which is a composite of matter, energy, work and awareness, then Siva Himself becomes essentially the work only because all these four items are essentially work only. Therefore one has to accept the existence of God as a working material and the force, which are unimaginable.

The word creation also means the process of work. The product of the work is also work here. Therefore, creation stands for work as well as product. Veda says that His power or energy or force (Shakti) is in several forms and the forms are awareness, force and work. Awareness is a form of work. Force is the matter and work is the general work like mechanical work etc.,(Paraasya Saktih..). You can approximately imagine God as the worker and the working material as His Maya or His power. Both God and Maya are unimaginable. Only the product, which is in the form of work or creation, is imaginable.

Gita says that the five elements along with mind, intelligence and egoism are categorised under one heading called as Apara Prakruti. The last three items indicate the awareness. Gita says that the second category is Para Prakruti, which is Jeva and which maintains the entire Universe (Bhumiraponalo…..). This concept is very critical and also is multi dimensional. If you say that awareness is Para Prakruti, it has already come under the Apara prakruti. If you say that Jeva means the living being, it is absurd because no living being is maintaining this entire Universe. Therefore, you have to take the right meaning in the careful way and in doing so several angles of the concept are simultaneously created. In fact, the meaning of any statement of the Lord is to be analysed very carefully since the statement is always multi-dimensional. The living being which includes human being has already come under the category of Apara Prakruti because the awareness in the form of mind, intelligence and egoism has already appeared in this category. The category “Para Prakruti” is mentioning only one item, which is called as Jeva. Among the four Antah Karanams mind, intelligence and egoism have already come under Apara Prakruti.

The fourth Antah Karanam, which is chittam is not mentioned in that category and therefore it should have been the item mentioned under the category of Para Prakruti. But we have seen that chittam is in two forms. One form is awareness and another form is inert energy. If you take chittam in the form of awareness, experience shows that chittam is limited to tiny living beings only. No living being is maintaining this world and therefore chittam under this category cannot be the form of awareness. If you take chittam in the form of inert energy in this category, the agreement is coming. This entire Universe is maintained by inert energy. Now the point comes that how the inert energy becomes Jeva? If you take chittam as inert energy present in the brain storing all the pulses of information (Gunas), it is Jeva only, who is existing even in the state of deep sleep. Even the concept of I in form of pulse (bit of information) is existing in this form of chittam.

Therefore, even if you define Jeva as a form of egoism there is no objection in this interpretation. If you consider the various pulses (bits of informations) as a mini Universe from the point of a design, this chittam (Jeva) is maintaining this mini world. If you take the inert energy of this chittam in macro scale, it is maintaining this entire macro Universe. If you like to call this inert energy as awareness, basically there is no objection. The awareness is essentially work and the inert energy is also basically work only. The awareness is meaningful only as long as the concept of I (pulse) exists. As long as God remains spectator, this entire inert energy can be the awareness because God is aware of the Universe. For God, nervous system is not required to maintain the awareness of the pulse of egoism. Therefore, from the angle of God there is no objection even if you call this entire inert energy of the Universe as awareness. From the angle of God all the inert energies are awareness only because He is aware of the entire creation. Since, the entire creation and the entire inert energy (maintainer) are under His control only, all the awareness is inert.

The word inert means that which is controlled. All the living beings are also controlled by God and therefore all the living beings are also inert including the souls. Veda says “ Atmesvaram…” which means that God is controller of souls. The distinction between inert and awareness is only from the point of living being. In the angle of living being the inert energy flowing through nervous system can alone be called as awareness. In the final time of destruction of world, the spectatorship of God is withdrawn. The Universe is in the state of imagination even during the time spectatorship of God. When the spectatorship is withdrawn, the Universe exists in the same imaginary state. Thus, from the angle of God there is no difference between the state of existence or the state of dissolution for the Universe. In both the states it is imagination and it is in a very subtle and negligible state only. When the spectatorship is withdrawn, you can treat it as the state of deep sleep of God. In this state all the souls are also like the inert pulses present in the computer chip.

The souls will not experience the creation and therefore from the point of souls the creation is invisible or inexperienced. Such state is called “Avyaktam”, which means the state of inexperience or invisibility. For God also the universe exists in invisible state in the case of dissolution of world. From the point of God you should not say that the Universe has been converted to subtle state from the solid state because the Universe is always subtle for God. From the point of God dissolution of Universe is only withdrawal of the spectatorship. A daydreamer withdraws himself from his imaginary world. He is no more a spectator and he is in deep sleep or in the awakened state itself without referring to that imaginary world. In both these states the imaginary world exists and it is maintained by the inert energy called chittam. The imaginary world is subtle and negligible whether the dreamer is a spectator of it or not. But if you take the soul the concept is quite different. In the time of dissolution of the world, the soul is not at all aware of the world. When the soul comes into the world from the state of dissolution of the world, the soul is experiencing solid world. Therefore, the world is solid for the soul during the time of existence of world and the same world is not experienced during the time of the dissolution of the world. Therefore, for the soul there are only two states regarding this world.

Either the world is experienced as solid or the world is not at all experienced. Never the world becomes imaginary to the soul. For God the world is always imaginary either in the state of existence or in the state of dissolution. When God comes down by entering into a human body as human incarnation, the situation is completely different. When God identifies Himself with human body and forgets Himself, the human incarnation experiences this world as solid. But the same God in human body, when remembers Himself, this solid world becomes imaginary world. In such remembered original state, He can pierce through solid wall because the wall is only imaginary for Him. Sankara entered the house of Mandana Misra through the bolted doors in such state. Now the point comes: Why should God enter human body? The entertainment from the world is little when the world is viewed as imaginary world only. The entertainment is full if the world is viewed as solid world.

For getting the full entertainment, God enters the human body and identifies Himself with that human body. After entering the human body also, if He remembers Himself constantly, then there is no meaning to enter the human body because in such state the world looks imaginary continuously. In such case God can remain in His original state and see the imaginary world continuously. He was having no entertainment before creating the imaginary world. After creating this imaginary world He got some entertainment. Some thing is better than nothing. After this He wanted full entertainment. Therefore, He entered the human form and became the human being for the full entertainment. Rama got full entertainment continuously because He never remembered His original state. The word Rama means the entertainment only. Krishna also got entertainment similarly but often He was disturbed and dragged back to His real state by the devotees and necessities.

The word Krishna means ‘dragged’. This is clearly stated in Veda (Ekaki Naramate…). Here Veda says that God created this Universe for entertainment and after some time He entered the Universe for full entertainment. Here Veda says that after entering the human body He has become both Sat and Tyat. Sat means His original state and Tyat means leaving His original state and identifying with the state of human being. Some interpret that God has entered every thing and every living being or every human being. If that is so, He cannot have any entertainment if He has become every thing. He must have enjoyed the entire inert objects of the world only if He has become every living being. If He has become every human being, He must have enjoyed the inert objects and all the living beings other than the human beings. In both these states the entertainment is not full. If He has become only one human being the entertainment is full because in such case He enjoys all the inert objects, all the living beings other than human beings and also all the other human beings.

The scope of the magnitude of the object of entertainment is widened to maximum extent in this case. Therefore, He becomes one human being only like Rama or Krishna or Jesus etc.
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Old 03-27-2006, 05:30 AM
Mike Dubbeld Mike Dubbeld is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
The existence of I requires the existence of awareness, which is the nervous energy. In deep sleep there is no existence of nervous energy and therefore there is no question of the existence of I in that state.
You are your awareness. Awareness = consciousness and
consciousness = energy + intelligence of Atman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
The I require the awareness of itself. This awareness or nervous energy is a special form of inert energy only.
Do you consider ahamkara a tattva/category? Jiva?

in•ert (in ûrt‚, i nûrt‚) adj.1. having no inherent power of action, motion, or resistance (opposed to active ) : inert matter. 2. Chem. having little or no ability to react, as nitrogen that occurs uncombined in the atmosphere. 3. Pharm. having no pharmacological action, as the excipient of a pill. 4. inactive or sluggish by habit or nature. [1640–50; < L inert- (s. of iners) unskillful, equiv. to in- IN-3 + -ert-, comb. form of art- (s. of ars) skill; see ART1]— in•ert‚ly, adv.— in•ert‚ness, n.— Syn. 1. immobile, unmoving, lifeless, motionless. 4. See inactive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
The inert energy produced by the chemicals in the brain flowing through nervous system becomes the awareness or nervous energy. The rain water fallen in the river Ganga is called as the sacred Ganga. The same rain water fallen in a tank is called as tank water. In deep sleep the energy existing in other systems is called as the heat of the body. Thus, there is no difference between the heat energy and nervous energy in the fundamental essence. When the nervous energy is absent, the feelings are also absent which are called vasanas or samskaras.
For others vasanas/samskara’s are desires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
But the same feelings exist in the form of Gunas, which are the pulses stored by the inert energy existing in the brain. The qualities exist like a computer chip in the computer. Then the computer is not in the state of working because in that state the electricity is not flowing in the computer. This electricity can be treated as the nervous energy, which is absent in the deep sleep. The chip in the computer is in the form of material and this material is the brain. The pulses are in the form of inert energy. This inert energy can be even called as matter from the angle of a scientist. The scientist does not distinguish matter and energy at this level of inert energy. Thus, the Jeeva, who is a bundle of qualities, exists as a bundle of pulses called as “Sphotas” by the Hindu scriptures (Sastras). These pulses are stored by the inert energy called as chittam.
Ok, jiva is a more common spelling. Shastra for scriptures. Inert is probably not a good word – inanimate/lifeless energy? Maybe potential energy. What Hindu scriptures?

Sphota is a word I have been trying to express as a Fourier fingerprint/the real name/natural name/ natural response/resonant frequency of a thing as opposed to its artificial man-made name. For practical purposes use here it can be called the ‘essence’ of a thing. The essence of a bird is flight. The essence of a fish is swimming. It answers the question ‘what do birds and fishes do?’ – fly and swim. What do humans do? (Plato wrongly – think) Sound vs meaning become important in mantra. A mantra gives rise to a specific form in the mind in the same way a person singing into a microphone attached to a drum with sand on it can dance/vibrate the particles into a specific ‘form’. The sound gives rise to a specific form is the idea (and Plato butchered – see Platonic dialogue Cratylus).

Chitta has many meanings and it is most unfortunate. I have no use for it except as subconscious like Sivananda and Vishnu. You are calling it an inert energy I realize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
You are not aware of any information stored by chittam. These pulses are the waves of the inert energy. Thus, the very material of pulse is the inert energy. Therefore, the material of these pulses is chittam. You can call chittam as matter in the micro state as per the terminology of a scientist. When the same chittam or inert energy flows in the nervous system, the same chittam is called as nervous energy or awareness. Thus, basically there is no difference between the awareness and inert energy.
Thus I disagree. You are your awareness as manifested in the Universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
The same inert energy when flows in a superior part of the brain in doing decisions is called as intelligence (Buddhi). The same inert energy flowing in nervous system becomes aware of itself is called as egoism (Ahankara). The same inert energy flowing in the nervous system, aware of other objects or other information is called as mind (Manas).
The important point being that buddhi, ahamkara, and manus are 3 different things, all of which are matter. All of which are not conscious without this energy. The West makes no distinction between mind and intellect but this is a mistake. The same people use the words awareness and mind synonymously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
The mind, intelligence and egoism can be treated as awareness or nervous energy
No they cannot. Computer chips are inanimate objects like your toaster or your car. Car, body and mind are all inanimate objects. Ego is Atman seen through all these forms. A specific manipulation of the energy giving rise to personality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
because in these three faculties the awareness of other objects (as in the case of mind and intelligence) or the awareness of it self (as in the case of egoism) exist. But, in the case of faculty of chittam in the state of inert energy, the awareness does not exist. Therefore, you are not aware of the information stored by chittam. Whenever, a particular part of the information is required by the other three faculties, that part of information is supplied by chittam to these three faculties. Such supply of part of information is called as memory (Smranam). When the part of information is supplied by chittam, the part of information is transferred from the inert energy to the awareness or nervous energy.
I’m sorry I don’t need to muddy up my picture with wrong ideas. Memory is part of the mind - the subconscious in particular. Pure awareness is Para. To be aware of a particular thing is pashyanti. To identify the thing with memory is madhyama. To verbalize the thing is vaikhari.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
Once the part of information is caught by the awareness, the part of information is memorised. Here you have to carefully analyse the concept. The points in this concept are 1) the part of information is stored in the inert energy as a pulse and during the time of storage the part of information is not remembered because the energy that stores the part of information is only the inert energy and not awareness. 2) When the part of information is stored in the inert energy, you are not aware of the information either in the deep sleep or in the awakened state. 3) When you are recollecting that information, the awareness is bringing out that from the tank of inert energy called as Chittam. 4) While bringing that information, the awareness is also carrying it on and storing the information in itself for some time and during this time the awareness can also be treated as store of information and can be called as Chittam temporarily.
I find any and all such descriptions amusing. I have never once found anyone on the web that actually even attempted to make sense out of it besides myself except for one person who did not even know yoga. My description is based on brain terminology like left and right cerebral cortex and cortical response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
These points give you the conclusion that chittam, which is the storing energy (capacitor) is in the form of inert energy permanently as well as awareness temporarily.
More like awareness stores energy in memories and the capacitor analogy is a good one. Withdrawal of this energy from memories can be done by hypnosis and also by mantra. Repressions can be released giving great energy in the form of emotion when traumatic for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
During the deep sleep, the chittam is no doubt inert energy only. But even during the awakened state, when you are not recollecting the information, the information lies in the inert energy only. Therefore, the inert energy-form of chittam is constant during the deep sleep as well as during the awakened state. The RAM in the computer is always present whether the computer is working or not. But during the awakened state, at the time of recollecting the information, the awareness also acts like a RAM temporarily while registering the information on the screen. During this time the awareness can be also called as chittam. Therefore, the characteristic of chittam is storage, whether the chittam is in the form of inert energy or awareness. The awareness-form of Chittam is temporary as it is limited to the awakened state or dream state. In the state of meditation there is no question of storage of information by awareness because the awareness is not aware of any other thing and it is aware of itself only.
Like I said, the only use I have found for chitta is the subconscious memory. Ram is insentient/lifeless/inert/inanimate. Only when awareness flows through it do we call it thinking. Awareness of thoughts does not however mean we are our thoughts. If I am aware of a tree, I am not a tree. If I think of a tree, I am not the thought of the tree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
It is stated that chittam has another function apart from storage (Smaranam). The other function is receiving the information (Samjnanam). The awareness (Chittam) is receiving the information from the tank of inert energy containing all the information or the same type of awareness receives the information from the external world also. Thus, the awareness working in receiving the information from the internal store of inert energy or from external world is called chittam.
Awareness moving through memories. Yippppeeee.

I will continue with the rest tomorrow. This is long. I find it interesting irregardless of perhaps difference of opinion. I haven't read the rest.

Mike Dubbeld
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Old 03-30-2006, 01:01 PM
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A lotus flower

Quote:
Originally Posted by dattaswami
The subjective God (Creator) is beyond words, mind, intelligence, logic and imagination as said in Veda. Gita says that if one approaches the subjective God directly, he will end in misery (Avyakthahi Gatih Duhkham…). This verse in Gita means that the souls having human bodies cannot worship the subjective God directly because such worship leads only to misery. You cannot even imagine the subjective God. When the approach is subjective, the mind is destroyed as said in Gita in the above verse. Only the objective approach will give happiness because there is no difficulty in capturing the God through an object. Since you are an object, you can capture the boundaries of another object through your mind. Any object is within the four-dimensional space-time model. The subjective God is beyond the dimensions of space and time. When you try to capture the subjective God, the mind is unable to catch Him and undergoes lot of difficulties leading into strain that destroys the mind.

At Thy Lotus Feet His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony

www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

A lotus flower is supposed to have intoxicating properties.
As an object that subject needs to be properly predicated.
Lets assume that the object is self control as a subject.
A sentence must have a verb somewhere in its structure.

Love Power Wisdom and Justice are useless if not in the mind.
The mind is useless if it has no heart or memory or motivation.
The heart is useless unless it has a soul that senses immagines.
Love is a verb an action word that articulates all human congress.

The universe is in thought word and deed outside yet it is inside.
Outside in the object but inside in the subject and thus predicated.
Belief systems that are not of the HEBREW leaning are from inside out.
The HEBREWS were the only nation that were given information direct.
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Love knowledge of the truth to trust for all eternity that is the BIBLE.
Power to be learning the ways of reason and not the ways of violence.
Wisdom to be acheiving the objective of the predicate of all sentences.
Justice to the poverty stricken nescience the poor children's innocence
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Old 03-31-2006, 05:12 AM
Mike Dubbeld Mike Dubbeld is offline
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The Hebrews are the most deluded of all as evidenced by your post.
Damaged is a better word.

Mike Dubbeld
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Old 03-31-2006, 05:36 AM
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Thanks for all the....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Dubbeld
The Hebrews are the most deluded of all as evidenced by your post.
Damaged is a better word.

Mike Dubbeld
Thanks for all the fish stories
History as a list of actions
Some remembered some forgotten
Most have never been heard.

Damage control OH out of tune
Sing a song like Stevie Wonder
Even if you practiced all your life
You would never ever sound like him.

Look its only another idiology appology
Logology over Mythology's google ol ogy
I stake my claim upon that which I wish.
Free to care old doctor I'm free to care.

Name one book that gives you a list of all human ancestors?
If you simply read Genesis 10 or 1 Chronicles there they are.
Don't believe me look that is your choice to not honour your fathers.
Have you ever noticed that HISTORY tends to repeat itself like groundhog day?
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Love knowledge of the truth to trust for all eternity that is the BIBLE.
Power to be learning the ways of reason and not the ways of violence.
Wisdom to be acheiving the objective of the predicate of all sentences.
Justice to the poverty stricken nescience the poor children's innocence
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