FrostCloud Forums  

Go Back   FrostCloud Forums > Politics > Politics and World Events

Greetings!

Politics and World Events A place for all you liberals, conservatives, and even radicals.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-28-2010, 06:32 AM
stonewall50 stonewall50 is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 119
Torture

I am starting this thread because of a statement made by posi. This statement is this:

Quote:
a principle it all but lost when it decided to torture people
This is in regards to America losing good principle that it had gained by conducting a brilliant and effective ending to the war against Japan.

So my question is this: Why does America lose respect? Is it because we made the mistake of getting caught? You are quite naive if you think the United States is the only major power that conducts "torture" (because I do not qualify standing for 4-8 hours torture when I have been on my feet for 10-12 hours a day before). The fact is if YOUR country has a foreign intelligence service, they have conducted torture and they WILL conduct torture.

To put this simply, your foreign intelligence officers are the gatekeepers of secrets. How do you get to the deepest darkest secrets of a country? The simple answer is by the book. Now the REALISTIC answer is that you do it by the book, and if that means cracking a skull or 2 with the book then so be it. The FACT is that these people who conduct this work are black ops. They are in an environment of kill or be killed. EVERYTHING that goes on in this world is dirty and not supposed to see the light of day. Do you criticize the men who tried to assasinate Osama with predator drones? How about the 42 attempts on Hitler's life? The NUMEROUS acts conducted by the US and British durng WW2. Because frankly, they are not allowed to do tha by the book. EVERY nation in history has assasinated, tortured, and done EVERY dirty trick in the book. So you either bitch at the US for getting caught or you shut up and say that there needs to be maybe some oversight and better planning on the part of the CIA on who they get involved with(see the cold war).
__________________
The question you must ask yourself is how you define strength. Is it simply muscle? Or is it more? Is it a mental firmness that allows you to stand against the storms of hate, pressure, and the depressing parts of life? Now the more important question: Are you that strong?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 05-28-2010, 03:35 PM
Symptom777's Avatar
Symptom777 Symptom777 is offline
Symptom of the Universe
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,001
Blog Entries: 12
It's because you are wankers.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-28-2010, 04:48 PM
stonewall50 stonewall50 is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 119
Well thought out but not an answer. Too bad you cannot think of anything intelligent. I guess thats the norm for you.
__________________
The question you must ask yourself is how you define strength. Is it simply muscle? Or is it more? Is it a mental firmness that allows you to stand against the storms of hate, pressure, and the depressing parts of life? Now the more important question: Are you that strong?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-28-2010, 06:48 PM
highlander highlander is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
I am starting this thread because of a statement made by posi. This statement is this:



This is in regards to America losing good principle that it had gained by conducting a brilliant and effective ending to the war against Japan.

So my question is this: Why does America lose respect? Is it because we made the mistake of getting caught? You are quite naive if you think the United States is the only major power that conducts "torture" (because I do not qualify standing for 4-8 hours torture when I have been on my feet for 10-12 hours a day before). The fact is if YOUR country has a foreign intelligence service, they have conducted torture and they WILL conduct torture.

To put this simply, your foreign intelligence officers are the gatekeepers of secrets. How do you get to the deepest darkest secrets of a country? The simple answer is by the book. Now the REALISTIC answer is that you do it by the book, and if that means cracking a skull or 2 with the book then so be it. The FACT is that these people who conduct this work are black ops. They are in an environment of kill or be killed. EVERYTHING that goes on in this world is dirty and not supposed to see the light of day. Do you criticize the men who tried to assasinate Osama with predator drones? How about the 42 attempts on Hitler's life? The NUMEROUS acts conducted by the US and British durng WW2. Because frankly, they are not allowed to do tha by the book. EVERY nation in history has assasinated, tortured, and done EVERY dirty trick in the book. So you either bitch at the US for getting caught or you shut up and say that there needs to be maybe some oversight and better planning on the part of the CIA on who they get involved with(see the cold war).
Stonewall!!. You have been watching those James Bond movies again


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...1301303_2.html
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-28-2010, 07:13 PM
PoseidonsNet's Avatar
PoseidonsNet PoseidonsNet is offline
Supermarine
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Africa
Posts: 2,283
Quote:
This is in regards to America losing good principle that it had gained by conducting a brilliant and effective ending to the war against Japan.
Are you implying that the word 'torture' should be attached to the nukes?
Thats reductionist in the extreme.

When you have someone at your mercy and they are incapable of defending themselves and you do them unwarranted harm - thats torture.

When someone attacks you, its self-defence to neutralize the threat.
After the nukes, Japan surrendered.
Had America carried on nuking, then that would be unwarranted, torturous and cruel, and america would have become that hated enemy of the world.

And it would have been defeated.

But it did not torture the Emperor.
It did not execute him.
America DID allow Saddam to be executed.

Strategic Psychology is what wins wars.
~~

Torture gives a short term solution,
but it creates a far far far far far far far bigger long term problem;
for the simple reason that it makes you the enemy of reason.

Those who hold the morale high ground always win in the long run.
I cannot remember if Sun Tzu has something to say on this.
Thats why the white south africans lost power,
despite superior everything else.

As for "MY" govt, I do not consider people who place
'constitutions' above Moses to be 'mine' in any way.

The ANC are no better than almost all govts the world over.
They pursue the war on drugs.
They are traitors to the revolution.

They pursue sodomy in the courts.
They are traitors to reason.

South Africa was at its best in th 90's when we had NO govt.
__________________
The Principles of Flight (in full)
http://www.poseidons.net/flight/Principlesofflight.htm
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-28-2010, 09:53 PM
stonewall50 stonewall50 is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 119
Quote:
Are you implying that the word 'torture' should be attached to the nukes?
Thats reductionist in the extreme.
No, because nuking someone is not torture. It might be overkill, but it is not torture by the "rules of war."

Quote:
America DID allow Saddam to be executed
America was ok with him being executed, but it was his own people that stretched that rope around his neck. I would say that is justified. The Japanesse did not want their emperor executed.

Quote:
Strategic Psychology is what wins wars.
I am going to disagree. I would say that Sun Tzu is correct in that intelligence wins war. Spying and knowing the enemy before you ever engage. The Allies knew around 97% of what was going on in the German military while the Germans only knew 95%. That 2% made the difference. Codes. All of that.

But the point is that in order to gain that knowledge it must be understood that by the book is not going to work to gain ALL of the information needed. The whole deal with torture is that the US did not use a lot of torture to gain information. It used false flag interrogations to gain more information than torture. The deal is that interogation is a science. And it does not matter how much people bitch and moan about torture it is not going to end as long as it works. Every nation will use it.

Quote:
Torture gives a short term solution,
but it creates a far far far far far far far bigger long term problem;
for the simple reason that it makes you the enemy of reason.
Again this is going over that torture will always be around. And the deal is that people who are tortured are not supposed to be found out. It may seem hostile, but it will always be done.

Quote:
Those who hold the morale high ground always win in the long run.
I cannot remember if Sun Tzu has something to say on this.
Thats why the white south africans lost power,
despite superior everything else.
No. He did not. He said whoever holds the WILL of the people will ultimately win. Part of this is to not torture them openly(Sadam did this, as do MANY Arab nations) or go around slaughtering them wholesale. Of course Western powers keep it on the DL that they tortoure, but media tends to get them in trouble.
It does help to maintain the "moral highground" but the reality is that there usually is no moral highground. I mean who is mainting the moral highground in the Middle East? Is it the United States? We "torture" people and are the occupiers(the biggest issue is usually contractors and NOT the actual military itself). Or is it the insurgency who cut open babies and plant bombs? Blow up crowded market places filled with innocent lives? Hold villages hostage and threaten to kill anyone who gives them up(because they do not abide by the rules)? While the "moral highground" accord is usually important, it does not tend to hold the case in a combat like that is being conducted now. The US DOES sit on the better gound in Afghanistan right now(assuming we actually finish what we started and help them rebuild).


Quote:
As for "MY" govt, I do not consider people who place
'constitutions' above Moses to be 'mine' in any way.

The ANC are no better than almost all govts the world over.
They pursue the war on drugs.
They are traitors to the revolution.

They pursue sodomy in the courts.
They are traitors to reason.

South Africa was at its best in th 90's when we had NO govt.
I do not live there, but I must ask is this the feeling of the majority? Or is this from your personal feelings? And if you live in the nation and pay money to the government it IS your government and you DO have a responsibility to make it better. It may be out of sight but each step brings you closer.
__________________
The question you must ask yourself is how you define strength. Is it simply muscle? Or is it more? Is it a mental firmness that allows you to stand against the storms of hate, pressure, and the depressing parts of life? Now the more important question: Are you that strong?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-28-2010, 10:21 PM
stonewall50 stonewall50 is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by highlander View Post
Stonewall!!. You have been watching those James Bond movies again


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...1301303_2.html
I am going to respond to each of these sections.

1)Torture DID work for the Gestapo. What is the point of torture? To gain information...yes. But what is the bigger reason? It is to instill fear. If you knew you were likely to be tortured and killed then you did what they told you to do and informed on those ecause if you DIDN'T you would be tortured as well. Right?

2)The use of that day and age for comments on torture does not reflect an important fact. The "information" that they sought was not given if it was not the information that the court WANTED. Also torture is used for intimidation...not information. That is a given. But to deny that it will work is crazy. It is all about WHEN torture is used. You do not use it ALL the time or your subjects are prepared to face it(like standard interrogation). Our special forces men are trained to resist torture because they know they face it if they are caught.

3)Again this statement is written by someone who is not THINKING about the use of torture. You use torture to gather information or CONFIRM information you already know. Yes it gives false information, but if you torture someone for intel that you have but are not certain about it can act as a confirmation.

And he is discussing CIA documents about tortur. Does he realize that the CIA ALSO has a document that says it does not conduct assasinations missions? Again discussing something about the buisness of secrets is QUITE silly.

4)Well first this goes back to the discussion of WHEN torture is to be used. It is to be used to CONFIRM information already held.

Also he discusses HOW torturers are choosen. Really? He knows who is choosen and why? Because realistically speaking the CIA would probably get who is right for the job. And not only that he says that people cannot see lies. Well here again, you can see a lie IF you know what to look at. You would know IF you had the proper intel with you, that someone is lying because of wording etc. It may not be spot on, but lie detectors can be used and to know what information is WRONG you can find what is right.

5)A STUPID statement that does NOT take into account that preperation is VERY valuable. If you know what is coming does it not make it easier to withstand? Being trained to resist is about knowing how to handle it and deal with it. If you are exposed to waterboarding in training then it is less likely to have a psychological impact on you for real. Yes the individual is still the factor, but when you deal with an individual who has been waterboarded, does it not help them to know that they will not DIE from it?

Did it not occur that maybe the CIA is VERY good at disinformation? Check out what the OSS was doing with THEIR disinformation during WW2.
__________________
The question you must ask yourself is how you define strength. Is it simply muscle? Or is it more? Is it a mental firmness that allows you to stand against the storms of hate, pressure, and the depressing parts of life? Now the more important question: Are you that strong?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-28-2010, 10:41 PM
PoseidonsNet's Avatar
PoseidonsNet PoseidonsNet is offline
Supermarine
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Africa
Posts: 2,283
well nobody holds the moral high ground in the middle-east from what i can see
- at least no govt - which is why its such a mess

america has always been on higher moral ground in iraq than afghanistan because of saddam's invasion of kuwait - ground which it lost with clinton and lost even further with bush the torturer and now with Mr say-but-not-do, it withers into a state of a global dictator without direction

as regards afghanistan there has never been a reason to be there except that the american gangster army has a very hungry heroin habit and an even hungrier heroin profit habit

say what you want

every army the world over has been fuelled by poppies
thats why poppy seeds sprout after a slaughter
- something that even happened during the times of Hannibal and Alexander

the 'spice' trade has always been about 'spice' in the
frank herbert sense of the word

~~

you know, i'm the last person in the world who dislikes american invasions per se,
my grandad was bailed out of ww2 concentration camps by the US military
were it not for that i would not be here

so i feel i owe something to the us military
which is why i am at pains to point out how the current situation
is just not working

people the world over hate america,
and i do believe that nixon's war on drugs is undermining all the positive
work america has done - afghanistan in particular

i feel terrible that i have to be so critical over a people
than have helped my family so much

but thats WHY i have to do it
for without such criticism
america WILL become the next nazi germany
until you rid yourselves of your 'win at all costs' mentality
you're just going to be seen as a bunch of bullies

until you admit defeat in the war on drugs,
you will be a global dictator and you will be destroyed

no nation is bigger than reason
__________________
The Principles of Flight (in full)
http://www.poseidons.net/flight/Principlesofflight.htm
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-29-2010, 12:33 AM
Nef Raven's Avatar
Nef Raven Nef Raven is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,011
Blog Entries: 81
Your are out of it today. People internationally cannot stand this country because every four years we have elections and choose a different leader. They think that every freakin election is and their campaigns is just another way of creating instability through out the nation like they have two years to listen to campaigning candidates and another two to actually enjoy looking at the work their commander and chief has enforced for the benefit of our country.

So, what is the revolution about two wars that can possibly start in the middle east or is it that we're spending money badly by paying for the burial of thousands of soldiers that come back home? Some people think their families should take over the burial costs of our troops as casualties andthat the government should use the spare money not given to the soldiers to improve education. It was an idea I read and I still do NOT have a comment about it because that is a GI benefit that I have always thought of as one that should not receive cuts.

How bad is our Education? How much money could we get and where would we invest that kind of money? Maybe the troops can decide what to do themselves as participants because soldiers want their children to have the best education this country can provide anyway.

That's it. We stop here. Thank you
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-29-2010, 01:11 PM
PoseidonsNet's Avatar
PoseidonsNet PoseidonsNet is offline
Supermarine
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Africa
Posts: 2,283
you make a fatal mistake in equating money with education
americans are prone to equating money with everything -

hey the people are overweight and have cancer

well, says mr yankee, give the doctors more money!
that'll fix it!

~~

basically if a family can only produce people that are worth nothing more than being cannon fodder, then yes, let them pay for the burial

The best ideas are born out of desperation,
not out of the comfort of excessive wealth,
that makes you lazy in the mind

you cannot serve god and money
__________________
The Principles of Flight (in full)
http://www.poseidons.net/flight/Principlesofflight.htm
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-29-2010, 01:11 PM
highlander highlander is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
I am going to respond to each of these sections.

1)Torture DID work for the Gestapo. What is the point of torture? To gain information...yes. But what is the bigger reason? It is to instill fear. If you knew you were likely to be tortured and killed then you did what they told you to do and informed on those ecause if you DIDN'T you would be tortured as well. Right?

2)The use of that day and age for comments on torture does not reflect an important fact. The "information" that they sought was not given if it was not the information that the court WANTED. Also torture is used for intimidation...not information. That is a given. But to deny that it will work is crazy. It is all about WHEN torture is used. You do not use it ALL the time or your subjects are prepared to face it(like standard interrogation). Our special forces men are trained to resist torture because they know they face it if they are caught.

3)Again this statement is written by someone who is not THINKING about the use of torture. You use torture to gather information or CONFIRM information you already know. Yes it gives false information, but if you torture someone for intel that you have but are not certain about it can act as a confirmation.

And he is discussing CIA documents about tortur. Does he realize that the CIA ALSO has a document that says it does not conduct assasinations missions? Again discussing something about the buisness of secrets is QUITE silly.

4)Well first this goes back to the discussion of WHEN torture is to be used. It is to be used to CONFIRM information already held.

Also he discusses HOW torturers are choosen. Really? He knows who is choosen and why? Because realistically speaking the CIA would probably get who is right for the job. And not only that he says that people cannot see lies. Well here again, you can see a lie IF you know what to look at. You would know IF you had the proper intel with you, that someone is lying because of wording etc. It may not be spot on, but lie detectors can be used and to know what information is WRONG you can find what is right.

5)A STUPID statement that does NOT take into account that preperation is VERY valuable. If you know what is coming does it not make it easier to withstand? Being trained to resist is about knowing how to handle it and deal with it. If you are exposed to waterboarding in training then it is less likely to have a psychological impact on you for real. Yes the individual is still the factor, but when you deal with an individual who has been waterboarded, does it not help them to know that they will not DIE from it?

Did it not occur that maybe the CIA is VERY good at disinformation? Check out what the OSS was doing with THEIR disinformation during WW2.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Despite all you say there is no evidence that torture actually works and as stated in the newspaper article there is evidence that it is counterproductive.

Torture is wrong on two counts. On a practical level and on an ethical level

It is unlikely to work and can be counterproductive and on an ethical level it is just plain wrong to inflict pain and terror on another human being and it is demeaning and dehumanising on both the tortured and the torturer.

Regarding the methods used by the Nazis and other fascist and communist states,do you want present day USA to classed with them???. Surely not.

I don't know why you keep quoting the CIA. Despite their methods, as you see them, they are an incompetent bunch costing millions every year.

Despite all the obvious signs they did not stop the 9/11 terrorists and the perpetrator of the recent Tmes Square car bomb was within minutes of fleeing the country despite being on their wanted list.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-29-2010, 03:06 PM
Glennn Glennn is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: A backstreet.
Posts: 922
It was through the use of torture that the Bush Administraion obtained information pointing to a link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda when there was no such link.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why the Cross of the Christians is not. wannaextreme Religion 145 01-18-2008 11:29 PM
"We do NOT torture people" ArghMonkey Politics and World Events 281 06-18-2007 10:51 AM
Whose Land Is It? A Study of The Land of Palestine iris89 Religion 119 11-04-2006 06:53 PM
Atheists less likely to "ok" torture then catholics or protestants ArghMonkey Religion 72 04-05-2006 05:18 AM
Torture should be banned, british lords agree ArghMonkey Politics and World Events 0 12-09-2005 12:37 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:30 AM.



Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright 2000-2008 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Hosted and Maintained by The IceStorm Network