FrostCloud Forums  

Go Back   FrostCloud Forums > Politics > Politics and World Events

Greetings!

Politics and World Events A place for all you liberals, conservatives, and even radicals.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-09-2009, 03:07 AM
stundie's Avatar
stundie stundie is offline
Pseudo-skeptical Spanker!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The land of woo, apparently!
Posts: 633
Is the current banking crisis a big Ponzi scheme? It looks like it!

Here is a brilliant interview for anyone who is interested.

The financial industry brought the economy to its knees, but how did they get away with it? With the nation wondering how to hold the bankers accountable, Bill Moyers sits down with William K. Black, the former senior regulator who cracked down on banks during the savings and loan crisis of the 1980s. Black offers his analysis of what went wrong and his critique of the bailout.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-09-2009, 04:21 AM
Bobbo Bobbo is offline
An old dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 2,881
I think you should not call it a Ponzi scheme. It is the result of bad policy, lax or absent regulation, a booming economy, and an irrational belief that somehow executives were making the big profits happen. Ever since this nation was formed we have had periods of boom followed by a bust. Greenspan called the recent boom "irrational exuberance." Anyone who didn't see the dot-com bust coming wasn't being rational. Neither was anyone who didn't see the housing bubble reaching a bursting point.

I also suggest that anyone who believes that the politicians and their appointees are the brightest and best is fooling him/her self. If these people really knew what business and an economy is all about we wouldn't have the recurring problems. In his farewell address Ike warned that the greatest threat to the nation was the military industrial complex. He knew. I believe we have not had a single truly effective administration since that time.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-09-2009, 05:17 AM
stundie's Avatar
stundie stundie is offline
Pseudo-skeptical Spanker!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The land of woo, apparently!
Posts: 633
If it walks, talks and smells like a Ponzi? Its a Ponzi!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
I think you should not call it a Ponzi scheme.
I do not call it a Ponzi scheme. William Black calls it this in the interview and I hate to appeal to authority, but I am going to take his word over yours.

No offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
It is the result of bad policy, lax or absent regulation, a booming economy, and an irrational belief that somehow executives were making the big profits happen.
How and why is it irrational??

You seem unable to think critically and I doubt you have watched the video.

So I'll quote it too make it easier for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interview
BILL MOYERS: In your book, you make it clear that calculated dishonesty by people in charge is at the heart of most large corporate failures and scandals, including, of course, the S&L, but is that true? Is that what you're saying here, that it was in the boardrooms and the CEO offices where this fraud began?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Absolutely.

BILL MOYERS: How did they do it? What do you mean?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Well, the way that you do it is to make really bad loans, because they pay better. Then you grow extremely rapidly, in other words, you're a Ponzi-like scheme. And the third thing you do is we call it leverage. That just means borrowing a lot of money, and the combination creates a situation where you have guaranteed record profits in the early years. That makes you rich, through the bonuses that modern executive compensation has produced. It also makes it inevitable that there's going to be a disaster down the road.

BILL MOYERS: So you're suggesting, saying that CEOs of some of these banks and mortgage firms in order to increase their own personal income, deliberately set out to make bad loans?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Yes.

BILL MOYERS: How do they get away with it? I mean, what about their own checks and balances in the company? What about their accounting divisions?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: All of those checks and balances report to the CEO, so if the CEO goes bad, all of the checks and balances are easily overcome. And the art form is not simply to defeat those internal controls, but to suborn them, to turn them into your greatest allies. And the bonus programs are exactly how you do that.

BILL MOYERS: If I wanted to go looking for the parties to this, with a good bird dog, where would you send me?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Well, that's exactly what hasn't happened. We haven't looked, all right? The Bush Administration essentially got rid of regulation, so if nobody was looking, you were able to do this with impunity and that's exactly what happened. Where would you look? You'd look at the specialty lenders. The lenders that did almost all of their work in the sub-prime and what's called Alt-A, liars' loans.

BILL MOYERS: Yeah. Liars' loans--

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Liars' loans.

BILL MOYERS: Why did they call them liars' loans?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Because they were liars' loans.

BILL MOYERS: And they knew it?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: They knew it. They knew that they were frauds.

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Liars' loans mean that we don't check. You tell us what your income is. You tell us what your job is. You tell us what your assets are, and we agree to believe you. We won't check on any of those things. And by the way, you get a better deal if you inflate your income and your job history and your assets.

BILL MOYERS: You think they really said that to borrowers?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: We know that they said that to borrowers. In fact, they were also called, in the trade, ninja loans.

BILL MOYERS: Ninja?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Yeah, because no income verification, no job verification, no asset verification.

BILL MOYERS: You're talking about significant American companies.

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Huge! One company produced as many losses as the entire Savings and Loan debacle.

BILL MOYERS: Which company?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: IndyMac specialized in making liars' loans. In 2006 alone, it sold $80 billion dollars of liars' loans to other companies. $80 billion.
Do you honestly think that IndyMac was not aware of what they were doing Bobbo?? ......lol.....

Surely you are not this gullible are you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interview Continued.....
BILL MOYERS: And was this happening exclusively in this sub-prime mortgage business?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: No, and that's a big part of the story as well. Even prime loans began to have non-verification. Even Ronald Reagan, you know, said, "Trust, but verify." They just gutted the verification process. We know that will produce enormous fraud, under economic theory, criminology theory, and two thousand years of life experience.

BILL MOYERS: Is it possible that these complex instruments were deliberately created so swindlers could exploit them?

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Oh, absolutely. This stuff, the exotic stuff that you're talking about was created out of things like liars' loans, that were known to be extraordinarily bad. And now it was getting triple-A ratings. Now a triple-A rating is supposed to mean there is zero credit risk. So you take something that not only has significant, it has crushing risk. That's why it's toxic. And you create this fiction that it has zero risk. That itself, of course, is a fraudulent exercise. And again, there was nobody looking, during the Bush years. So finally, only a year ago, we started to have a Congressional investigation of some of these rating agencies, and it's scandalous what came out. What we know now is that the rating agencies never looked at a single loan file. When they finally did look, after the markets had completely collapsed, they found, and I'm quoting Fitch, the smallest of the rating agencies, "the results were disconcerting, in that there was the appearance of fraud in nearly every file we examined."

BILL MOYERS: So if your assumption is correct, your evidence is sound, the bank, the lending company, created a fraud. And the ratings agency that is supposed to test the value of these assets knowingly entered into the fraud. Both parties are committing fraud by intention.

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Right, and the investment banker that — we call it pooling — puts together these bad mortgages, these liars' loans, and creates the toxic waste of these derivatives. All of them do that. And then they sell it to the world and the world just thinks because it has a triple-A rating it must actually be safe. Well, instead, there are 60 and 80 percent losses on these things, because of course they, in reality, are toxic waste.

BILL MOYERS: You're describing what Bernie Madoff did to a limited number of people. But you're saying it's systemic, a systemic Ponzi scheme.

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Oh, Bernie was a piker. He doesn't even get into the front ranks of a Ponzi scheme...

BILL MOYERS: But you're saying our system became a Ponzi scheme.

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Our system...

BILL MOYERS: Our financial system...

WILLIAM K. BLACK: Became a Ponzi scheme. Everybody was buying a pig in the poke. But they were buying a pig in the poke with a pretty pink ribbon, and the pink ribbon said, "Triple-A."
Is this being made clearer for you yet Bobbo??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
Ever since this nation was formed we have had periods of boom followed by a bust.
That doesn't negate the fact that the bust cannot be instigated by key players does it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
Greenspan called the recent boom "irrational exuberance."
Yes, irrational exuberance...but who instigates this and more importantly, who ultimately ends up paying for the exuberance?

People like Alan Greenspan?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
Anyone who didn't see the dot-com bust coming wasn't being rational. Neither was anyone who didn't see the housing bubble reaching a bursting point.
That is true, but most people have little to no knowledge of finance and trust those who are experts who were consistantly saying that there would be no bust and claiming those who predicted it, as doom mongers and irrational.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
I also suggest that anyone who believes that the politicians and their appointees are the brightest and best is fooling him/her self.
I suggest that anyone who believes that these people were unaware of what they were doing is fooling themselves too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
If these people really knew what business and an economy is all about we wouldn't have the recurring problems.
These people understand business and economy very well, hence they were aware of what they were doing.

These people got very rich during the good times and are now being bailed out during the bad times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
In his farewell address Ike warned that the greatest threat to the nation was the military industrial complex. He knew. I believe we have not had a single truly effective administration since that time.
And he was right, hence the US is engaged in a war on terror, chasing a goldstien like villian, searching for phantom WMD, all based on spreading fear from an attack I believe that elements of the government instrumented.

I do not think Eisenhower would be aware or could have predicted the financial crisis of today because there were checks, balances and better regulation.

Lessons learned from the school of hard knocks known as the Great Depression.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-09-2009, 05:48 AM
Dragon's Avatar
Dragon Dragon is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 29,365
Send a message via AIM to Dragon Send a message via MSN to Dragon Send a message via Yahoo to Dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
Here is a brilliant interview for anyone who is interested.

The financial industry brought the economy to its knees, but how did they get away with it? With the nation wondering how to hold the bankers accountable, Bill Moyers sits down with William K. Black, the former senior regulator who cracked down on banks during the savings and loan crisis of the 1980s. Black offers his analysis of what went wrong and his critique of the bailout.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html
I actually stated this in another thread. This whole bail out situation is a Ponzi Scheme. Its a shame that we have bad guys in the private sector being punished, but not our political leaders of the Democrat or Republican parties.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-09-2009, 06:00 AM
Dragon's Avatar
Dragon Dragon is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 29,365
Send a message via AIM to Dragon Send a message via MSN to Dragon Send a message via Yahoo to Dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
Lessons learned from the school of hard knocks known as the Great Depression.
ironically it was during the Great Depression that we had a government that stepped in thinking it was the hero and could save the day. Only that same government ruined it more with their big noses.
Sorry, regulation does not solve the problem in my book Mr. Black(not talking directly here to you Stundie but Blacks points of thinking the business world had all the cards).
Now that is not to say that we do not have private businessmen that are crooks and need to be punished.

I do agree with Mr. Black that we had a lot of people who want loans that lied on their information of income and such. Which leads me to make the point is we should of never bailed out anyone, since there is a little bit of everyones fault...well at least those that are not honest. Those of us that were honest are being screwed over by the corrupt government, some corrupt businessmen and incompetent citizens who lied on their information for the loans.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-09-2009, 06:46 AM
Ben Burkhill's Avatar
Ben Burkhill Ben Burkhill is offline
Interhuman Symbiosis
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The land of Aus
Posts: 8,547
A lack of regulation caused the current situation in my opinion (and many others opinion) but I also concede that over regulation leads to an inefficient and rather stagnant scenario with the same results as no regulation - obviously there is a balance to be had. Moderate regulation - the greedy must be observed openly, and be held accountable with stiff penalties, but the government should not own the corporations.
__________________
Self control is the chief element in self respect and self respect is the chief element in courage.

Thucydides
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-09-2009, 01:31 PM
Dragon's Avatar
Dragon Dragon is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 29,365
Send a message via AIM to Dragon Send a message via MSN to Dragon Send a message via Yahoo to Dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Burkhill View Post
A lack of regulation caused the current situation in my opinion (and many others opinion) but I also concede that over regulation leads to an inefficient and rather stagnant scenario with the same results as no regulation - obviously there is a balance to be had. Moderate regulation - the greedy must be observed openly, and be held accountable with stiff penalties, but the government should not own the corporations.
However, if you cross the line of accusing someone to be greedy, you better have not been yourself, otherwise it is hypocricy. Also this greed has to be aligned with a law broken, not just yelling out they are greedy morality kind of line. Because one persons greedy is not another persons greedy.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-09-2009, 02:54 PM
stundie's Avatar
stundie stundie is offline
Pseudo-skeptical Spanker!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The land of woo, apparently!
Posts: 633
They are all to blame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
I actually stated this in another thread. This whole bail out situation is a Ponzi Scheme. Its a shame that we have bad guys in the private sector being punished, but not our political leaders of the Democrat or Republican parties.
It is a shame but the reason why these political leaders are not being blamed is because not enough people understand how finance works. Even if both parties agreed to the deregulation of the market, it doesn't give the right for these companies to make these dodgy "liar" loans.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-09-2009, 04:10 PM
stundie's Avatar
stundie stundie is offline
Pseudo-skeptical Spanker!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The land of woo, apparently!
Posts: 633
Look where the finger is pointing or you will miss the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
ironically it was during the Great Depression that we had a government that stepped in thinking it was the hero and could save the day. Only that same government ruined it more with their big noses.
|I'm confused? Are you suggesting that when the government introduced the Glass Steagall law, that they ruined it more??

How so?

Because it was the repealing of this law which as caused the problems we are currently seeing today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Sorry, regulation does not solve the problem in my book Mr. Black(not talking directly here to you Stundie but Blacks points of thinking the business world had all the cards).
I'm sorry Dragon, but I do not know how you can say that with a straight face.

I understand that too much regulation is damaging but having no regulation is evem more damaging. To suggest that it doesn't solve problem is denying that it was deregulation that allowed these banks to be greedy.

It feels like I am talking to the spirit of Alan Greenspan who was a vocal champion of the derivatives market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Now that is not to say that we do not have private businessmen that are crooks and need to be punished.
Its not private businessmen that are the problem, it is more systemic than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
I do agree with Mr. Black that we had a lot of people who want loans that lied on their information of income and such.
But it was deregulation that allowed these loans to be made without the regular checks and balances.

Its not just the people who lied about the information of income and assets but those who over leveraged their capital to create these loans knowing that they were fraudulent, then repackaging them and lying again and selling them on as triple A investments when they were toxic.

I remember my friend whose self employed wanted to buy a place after him and his partner had split up. He was told quite openly that he could lie about his income by the mortagage advisor, so that he could obtain a larger mortagage for a larger property. He didn't need too as the value of the property was lower than the 3 times income that banks/building societies used to work out the maximum loan amount that could be given to an individual.

This was going off up and down the country (No thanks to Royal Bank Of Scotland!) and it is what was pushing up the value of the housing market.

I knew there was a problem years ago when the value of property was significantly increasing, much more than the increase of peoples incomes. Lots of people could not get on to the property ladder, because the average property value was much higher than 3 times the average salary of an individual.

The reason for regulation, is to ensure responsible borrowing. A culture of buy now, pay later was created which boosted ecomonies, made us think everything was peachy but as I've always maintained from the moment I saw this problem coming, is that the only people who loose are the borrowers, the banks always get their money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Which leads me to make the point is we should of never bailed out anyone, since there is a little bit of everyones fault...well at least those that are not honest.
I agree, but those who were involved in this were fully aware of what was going off.

Why these banks are being bailed out as opposed to Prompt Corrective Action which is a mandate required by law is puzzling but understandable considering the scale of what was happening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Those of us that were honest are being screwed over by the corrupt government, some corrupt businessmen and incompetent citizens who lied on their information for the loans.
And guess what?

We are going to pay for these mistakes for many years to come.

The question you should asking is why there is no investigation to find out what went wrong, what happened and what can be done to ensure this doesn't happen again?

The answer is quite obvious, any investigations would unearth so many irregular financial practices in the markets that benefited the rich at the expense of us poor sods.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-09-2009, 11:00 PM
Dragon's Avatar
Dragon Dragon is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 29,365
Send a message via AIM to Dragon Send a message via MSN to Dragon Send a message via Yahoo to Dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
It is a shame but the reason why these political leaders are not being blamed is because not enough people understand how finance works. Even if both parties agreed to the deregulation of the market, it doesn't give the right for these companies to make these dodgy "liar" loans.
But as you will see I think it is the regulation that stifles us and restricts innovation. Just like the word greedy is used so loosely and used in every essence when someone disagrees with that person.

I do not think our government is in the business of regulation or intervening. Maybe in England your society and government was suppose to be set up that way, but not in USA. Yes, checks and balances was meant within the government, but not in the private sector.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-09-2009, 11:41 PM
Bobbo Bobbo is offline
An old dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 2,881
Stundie, the reason there will never be an investigation is because the people in the government, and in the business community, today are the ones who helped create the mess. They will never investigate themselves.

If you want to point fingers and place blame, how far back shall we go? To the founders of the representative forms of government which were given the power to regulate commerce and which charter the corporations? To the Dutch who invented the corporate form of business arrangement 500 years ago? To the genetic heritage of all of us which includes a characteristic we call "greed". The consumer on the street is just as guilty as everyone else.

Simple fact is that the primary purpose of a corporation is to make the most profit it can for its shareholders. There may be secondary goals, but unless the business makes money it will die. The workers, including the exectutives, in every business who do not attempt to maximize profits are cheating their stockholders. The corporation is not in business to provide jobs, to protect the environment, or to bring peace to the world.

Governments make the rules for the game of business. If a business wants to win, it must use every legal means to do so and if the rules don't cover a particular profit-making scheme the business is free to do what it wants. You may not like it, you may not want it that way, but that's the way it is.

Technology evolves, industry evolves, business evolves, economies evolve, the jobs people do evolve. The rules for conducting business and doing commerce must evolve too. Governments are responsible for keeping the rules up to date. The people are responsible for the governments. If anyone wants to know who to blame, just look in a mirror.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-10-2009, 12:13 AM
Dragon's Avatar
Dragon Dragon is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 29,365
Send a message via AIM to Dragon Send a message via MSN to Dragon Send a message via Yahoo to Dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
|I'm confused? Are you suggesting that when the government introduced the Glass Steagall law, that they ruined it more??

How so?
It is allowing the government to stick its nose in private business when there is no need. Why is this same old line of argument being so used lately, havent the big government types learned yet that you can not regulation private industry? Its one thing to have laws that stop fraud and theft and such. But if someone makes money legitly, stop turning them into crooks.
We wouldnt NEED this kind of act if we would of never went off our gold standard...which we can thank FDR for that. Learn a little about history in this nation before spouting off corrupt Acts/laws. We would nto be down this path if FDR did not push for his The Gold Confiscation Act.
We need to remember that banks are not int he business to make money, its customers are(hence interest you gain from savings).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
Because it was the repealing of this law which as caused the problems we are currently seeing today.
I'm sorry Dragon, but I do not know how you can say that with a straight face.
No it was the New Deal and Great Society acts and legislation that messed this up along with Frank Blarney, Dodd and Palosei and otehrs in our government that want to enlarge the powers of government in the private sector. (please do not misunderstand me, republican leaders are just as responsible...but not nearly as vocal as the Democrats)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
I understand that too much regulation is damaging but having no regulation is evem more damaging. To suggest that it doesn't solve problem is denying that it was deregulation that allowed these banks to be greedy.
That is why laws are created in courts. let the courts do the job of prosecution of criminals and leave the legislation to worry about other duties(at least how it is suppose to be in this country).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
It feels like I am talking to the spirit of Alan Greenspan who was a vocal champion of the derivatives market.
Its not private businessmen that are the problem, it is more systemic than that.
Are you talking about free market/capitalism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
But it was deregulation that allowed these loans to be made without the regular checks and balances.
But our politicians should not be deciding this type of thing, that is the courts and the general populous to decide such laws to be put in the books of each state. Not politicans on a national level or even at state level. We can not regulate greed, that is a moral question that should never be legislated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
Its not just the people who lied about the information of income and assets but those who over leveraged their capital to create these loans knowing that they were fraudulent, then repackaging them and lying again and selling them on as triple A investments when they were toxic.
I agree that those that allowed it to happen should be highlighted, but its the citizens that took it upon themselves to NOT think before creating these loans(whether for homes or businesses) in the first place. If people would of used their heads, they would not been taken advantage of. I hear how people complain about the trickle down thing, why not some consequences of the trickle up from the common person?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
I remember my friend whose self employed wanted to buy a place after him and his partner had split up. He was told quite openly that he could lie about his income by the mortagage advisor, so that he could obtain a larger mortagage for a larger property. He didn't need too as the value of the property was lower than the 3 times income that banks/building societies used to work out the maximum loan amount that could be given to an individual.

This was going off up and down the country (No thanks to Royal Bank Of Scotland!) and it is what was pushing up the value of the housing market.

I knew there was a problem years ago when the value of property was significantly increasing, much more than the increase of peoples incomes. Lots of people could not get on to the property ladder, because the average property value was much higher than 3 times the average salary of an individual.
I understand what you are trying to say.

[quote=stundie;428158The reason for regulation, is to ensure responsible borrowing. A culture of buy now, pay later was created which boosted ecomonies, made us think everything was peachy but as I've always maintained from the moment I saw this problem coming, is that the only people who loose are the borrowers, the banks always get their money.
I agree, but those who were involved in this were fully aware of what was going off.[/QUOTE]

You can not regulate morality or ideology like greed and spending practices. Only way you can teach or solve this issue is to teach the borrowers a lesson. And the only way you can do that is to allow them to make the stupid mistake and learn from it.
What do you think a mortatage is Stundie? Its a buy now and pay later thing. Not even a millionare would pay off that item right off the bat, any common sense person who wants to buy a house(most common instance you would use a loan)KNOWS that it is better to get a loan you can afford based on your income(not including bonuses and such).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
Why these banks are being bailed out as opposed to Prompt Corrective Action which is a mandate required by law is puzzling but understandable considering the scale of what was happening.
And guess what?
I do not agree it is understandable...it is inexcusable and wrong. It is sucking mine, my childern and grandchilderns future down the drain. For what? So some lame excuse for a human can be okay now? Inexcuseable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
We are going to pay for these mistakes for many years to come.
Yes, my childern, and their childern too.

[quote=stundie;428158The question you should asking is why there is no investigation to find out what went wrong, what happened and what can be done to ensure this doesn't happen again?[/QUOTE]

There is laws in the books in each state for crimes of fraud and theft. Why do we need a NATIONAL law to do this? Reason why this nation has states with their own laws that was decided by its citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
The answer is quite obvious, any investigations would unearth so many irregular financial practices in the markets that benefited the rich at the expense of us poor sods.
Not just the rich that benifited...even those poor sobs got a nice home and now they are being and will be bailed out. Not just the banks, even Obama thinks this of bailing out those poor sobs. What about us poor sobs that did not get sucked into these bad loans? Can not save everyone.

By the way, these are ideal opinions of mine, does not mean they are realistic at this time in history of what I think our governments role.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-10-2009, 01:24 AM
stundie's Avatar
stundie stundie is offline
Pseudo-skeptical Spanker!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The land of woo, apparently!
Posts: 633
Dragon only as one wing....Thats the right wing......lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
But as you will see I think it is the regulation that stifles us and restricts innovation.
How does regulation stifle us and restrict innovation??

Regulation protects you, no matter how much you hate it.

The car you drive would not be designed to safety standards if there was no regulatory control. Air travel would be far more riskier without regulation. We have laws, regulations if you will, stops us and others from killing each other. The water you drink from the tap as to meet regulatory standards in order for it too be safe for human consumption. The medicine you take when you are ill or sick as to pass stringent regulatory measures in order that they do what they say they do on the packet, that they are safe to use and that they have no serious side effects.

In a world without regulatory control......you would be fucked.

Hence the financial system is fucked because of a lack of regulatory control.

Too much regulation is bad, not enough is even worse!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Just like the word greedy is used so loosely and used in every essence when someone disagrees with that person.
Sorry Dragon, but I do not call anyone greedy because they disagree with me.....lol

I use the word greedy when I feel someone or thing is being greedy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
I do not think our government is in the business of regulation or intervening.
So what is the purpose of government if it is not regulating rules and restrictions?

The laughable thing is you go on about a hatred of regulation, yet in the same breath, you are quite happy for marijuana to be regulated by rules which make it illegal....lol

It is like hypocrisy as gained a voice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Maybe in England your society and government was suppose to be set up that way, but not in USA.
So the job of government is not to regulate??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Yes, checks and balances was meant within the government, but not in the private sector.
So the private sector is above such checks and balances?? Are they morally on higher ground??

Sometimes when I speak with you Dragon, there is a glimmer of intelligence but it is being drowned out with group-think conservatism straight from the Bill O'Reilly playbook........lol

The public sector would never do any harm.....lol....even though they are partially responsible for this mess!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-10-2009, 02:07 AM
stundie's Avatar
stundie stundie is offline
Pseudo-skeptical Spanker!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The land of woo, apparently!
Posts: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
Stundie, the reason there will never be an investigation is because the people in the government, and in the business community, today are the ones who helped create the mess. They will never investigate themselves.
Never thought I would say this Bobbo, but I completely agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
If you want to point fingers and place blame, how far back shall we go?
To the people who deregulated the market and allowed banks to over leverage and create these ponzi schemes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
To the founders of the representative forms of government which were given the power to regulate commerce and which charter the corporations?
Sorry but the founders are not responsible for this mess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
To the Dutch who invented the corporate form of business arrangement 500 years ago?
I wouldn't be surprised if you actually blamed the Dutch........lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
To the genetic heritage of all of us which includes a characteristic we call "greed".
Greed is not genetic, it is a learned behaviour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
The consumer on the street is just as guilty as everyone else.
Sorry, but I didn't realise the consumer on the street was in charge of AIG, Fannie Mae etc etc! lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
Simple fact is that the primary purpose of a corporation is to make the most profit it can for its shareholders. There may be secondary goals, but unless the business makes money it will die.
True, unless it can be bailed out......of course.......lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
The workers, including the exectutives, in every business who do not attempt to maximize profits are cheating their stockholders.
So stockholders are prioriety number 1 then?

Fuck minimun wages and rights, these workers should work for free to ensure stockholders can maximise their profits hey Bobbo? lol

Those cheating workers....lol...Who do they think they are wanting a wage which cheats stockholders of profit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
The corporation is not in business to provide jobs, to protect the environment, or to bring peace to the world.
I know, it is to make stockholders rich isn't it Bobbo?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
Governments make the rules for the game of business. If a business wants to win, it must use every legal means to do so and if the rules don't cover a particular profit-making scheme the business is free to do what it wants.
But these businesses were not using legal means?........lol Unless you think ponzi schemes are legal?

If so, shall we see you defending Madoff?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
You may not like it, you may not want it that way, but that's the way it is.
Imagine if that argument was used against someone who was against slavery??

You may not like Slavery, you may not want Slavery that way, but that's the way Slavery is.

What a convincing argument Bobbo?? lol I wish my logic and points were as aspirational as that retarded, logically redundant statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
Technology evolves, industry evolves, business evolves, economies evolve, the jobs people do evolve.
Yes, they do but you have not evolved have you Bobbo.....Strange that isn't it??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
The rules for conducting business and doing commerce must evolve too.
When you say evolve, does that mean removing protection to ensure the US doesn't suffer another great depression?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
Governments are responsible for keeping the rules up to date. The people are responsible for the governments. If anyone wants to know who to blame, just look in a mirror.
Shit, it was not the fault of bankers or politicians.....but the fault of a mirror?

Is this the same mirror from the Snow White which lied to the witch when it claimed she was the fairest of them all??

Bobbo, if you are going to address any of the points from William Black interview. It would help if you actually paid attention to what he is saying......
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-10-2009, 03:51 AM
Bobbo Bobbo is offline
An old dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 2,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
... the people who deregulated the market and allowed banks to over leverage and create these ponzi schemes.
The dot-com bubble was a Ponzi scheme? The housing bubble was a Ponzi scheme? You obviously have no idea what the term "Ponzi scheme" means. Madoff ran a Ponzi scheme, and apparently so did Sanford. There have been any number of them discovered in the last 80 years. I liked the one by Billie Sol Estes the best. Very creative.

Poor risk management and NO regulation of newly created financial intstruments (such as CDS's) were at least as important in causing the current financial meltdown as deregulation. So was (and is) the intrusion of governemnt into the problem. So far the bailouts have only made the problems worse.

These corporations should never have been allowed to grow to the point of becoming systemic risks. Too big to fail means too big to exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
... Greed is not genetic, it is a learned behaviour.
Wrong. Sharing is a learned behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
...Sorry, but I didn't realise the consumer on the street was in charge of AIG, Fannie Mae etc etc ...
Who got the mortgages? Who put their IRA and 401-k money in the stock market? Who voted for the politicians? And what happened to term limits? That one thing would do more to clean up politics than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
So stockholders are prioriety number 1 then?
As far as the management of the corporation is concerned, absolutely. Well next to their own interests of course. That's why there is a board of directors to oversee the CEO and his team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
Fuck minimun wages and rights ...
If the government did not make these things part of the rules of the game the corporations would not be oligated to pay more than it had to and would not be obligated to give the workers benefits in excess of what the workers would work for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
But these businesses were not using legal means?....
The unregulated business practices were legal. The companies were playing by the rules. In order for the questioned actions to be illegal there would have had to be regulations in place defining what was legal. The governments failed to put the rules in place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
Imagine if that argument was used against someone who was against slavery??
When slavery was legal, guess what? Slavery was legal. Just because you don't like the law doesn't change the law or give you the right to disobey the law. If you are going to live within the rule of law and you don't like a law then you should work to change the law. That's the way slavery was abolished. And that's the way business practices must be regulated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stundie View Post
Bobbo, if you are going to address any of the points from William Black interview. It would help if you actually paid attention to what he is saying....
Do you think making rude remarks adds any credence to your arguments? It doesn't. Do you think inserting a cute little animated icon into your posts communicates your understanding of the subject? It doesn't. It only makes you sound a lot like Monkey. Is that what you want? Is he one of your heroes? You might be taken a bit more seriously if you would pretend to be an adult.

Most of what Black said in the interview was correct. But calling the current problems and the government's intervention a Ponzi scheme is ridiculous. If you understood the problems you would see this immediately.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Michelson and Morely experiments with light spacedout Space and Time 212 11-29-2008 09:21 PM
Gustav headed for current that fuels big storms (AP) NewsFeed Science and Nature News Feeds 0 08-29-2008 11:46 PM
The Vision Thing brodix General Philosophy 40 05-02-2006 03:43 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:16 AM.



Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright 2000-2008 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Hosted and Maintained by The IceStorm Network